Hi @furiousanger,
Your topic will be moving to the AIP Draft phase in less than 24 hours. Are you content with the feedback received or do you wish to extend community discussion for another 7 days?
If we do not hear from you within 48 hours after your topic closes, your topic will be moved straight to the AIP Draft process.
We look forward to hearing from you.
-Vulkan
Amplify just informed me this is n/a as has been implemented. So please close. TY
Maybe if there was some way to send the abstain number to the bottom as they are not contributing to the vote count.
One strong argument for continuing to display the Abstain count comes down to one of the Foundation’s five guiding values as outlined in AIP-1: Transparency.
“In keeping with the core APE Foundation value of transparency, all ideas and commentary in Discourse, proposals, votes cast, and voting outcomes will be publically available to view.”
This one is pretty clearly outlined in the founding document, so obstructing the view of a function we voted into existence (AIP-200) seems to go directly against this guiding value.
What are you referring to - what has been implemented?
Exactly! Abstain votes ARE votes.
That there’s even been serious discussion among higher-ups to arbitrarily hide those votes, without any mandate or authority, and never answering when challenged on the subject that they have no such mandate or authority, shows how extremely casual some of those in power already are about consistency, transparency, etc.
Hi CL,
Thanks.
As the abstain count has no weight within the vote results, I would argue that the removal of the data itself cannot possibly be untransparent. I suggest the abstain button is merely a tool to prove attendance in most cases.
Amplify did inform me that this was already in the works and has been implemented - possibly I front-run the idea, either way, super glad to see this ofc.
One thing I will say and that I agree with - this is a much larger topic, needs lots of discussion, and Amplify also makes a great case for how this will all happen as soon as the Governance WG and Ape Assembly are in place, so I certainly look forward to those debates.
Thanks for adding to the thread. Much appreciated as always
Hi Srinigoes,
Thanks for jumping on.
Yes, totally agree, the heaviest vote is always on top, and lately that has been the Abstain count.
If we had to settle, for me this would also be a great solution.
Thanks
Thanks.
Absolutely inexcusable and infuriating. Given that’s how they treat “transparency” with actual votes, and so casually and openly display gross overreach, just imagine what next given there’s zero audits, oversight or accountability.
Hello everyone!
There’s been a lot of discussion about Abstain, including it’s merits as an option but also the optics and potential influence Abstain has on voting.
The intention behind Abstain was always to give users the autonomy to show up and vote, period.
The ApeCoin.eth snapshot space was using a custom voting strategy, instead of the “Basic Voting” that is standard with Snapshot. Yesterday, the DAO Administrators and the Governance WG, with oversight from the Special Council, implemented the “Basic Voting” strategy.
This strategy still allows users to vote “For” - “Against” - “Abstain” with the big difference being that “Abstain” votes do not show in the “Current Results” section during voting, but they do show in the “Parent” Snapshot space," or
https://snapshot.org/#/apecoin.eth
I’ve included some screenshots of what this looks like for everyone to have a better understanding of the changes.
What voting Abstain looks like during the vote 
What voting Abstain looks like after the vote has closed
What the snapshot space looks like after the vote has closed
Hopefully this gives everyone a better picture of what’s been implemented here by the Foundation, per AIP-200.
Please let us know if you have any questions, and of course we are happy to continue the conversation if this is not what the community believes is the best way to implement “Abstain” voting.
-Amplify
Who voted for it? Where can we find documentation of the authority they used to do this?
Whether someone thinks that Abstain votes matter or not - and they do because they were voted for as an option, and they are votes, and NO credible organization hides Abstain votes - what absolutely matters is that people do such things with zero mandate or authority whatsoever. And there’s nothing good or OK about that.
As soon as the Governance WG and Ape Assembly are in place they’ll more easily do whatever TF they want, just like was done in hiding Abstain votes, all without any oversight or accountability.
Hi mate,
So for me, as abstain have no weight in the result outcome, seemed odd that they could in fact potentially be impacting how voters cast their votes.
On the other points re oversight and accountability you know my views are aligned with yours already.
Hello @br00no,
AIP-200 as approved, includes the following language:
" The AIP implementation is administered by the Ape Foundation. Implementation may be immaterially or materially altered to optimise for security, usability, to protect APE holders, and otherwise to effect the intent of the AIP. Any material deviations from an AIP, as initially approved, will be disclosed to the APE holder community. "
We do not believe that the Basic Voting strategy on snapshot “hides” abstain votes as they are both visible in the “Votes” list, as well as the snapshot space. Implementing the Basic Voting strategy was deemed to be an appropriate implementation of AIP-200.
Please let me know if you have any questions. 
-Amplify
Hi everyone,
While the Abstain vote may not have any weight in the final outcome of a vote, it still represents an important aspect of participation and engagement in the DAO. Removing the visibility of the Abstain vote can be seen as a move away from transparency and openness, and it raises questions about the intentions behind such a decision.
As a community, we need to ensure that our decision-making process is inclusive, transparent, and accountable. This includes giving due consideration to all votes, even if they may not directly impact the outcome of a vote.
My suggestion here is as to ask and talk about how can we as a community ensure that our decision-making process is transparent, inclusive, and accountable? What steps can we take to ensure that all voices are heard and that decisions are made in the best interest of the community?
-Mr. Hype 
Thanks, @amplify.Admin
Deemed by whom, and on what date please?
Where can we read a statement on how or why this was deemed to “to optimise for security, usability, to protect APE holders, and otherwise to effect the intent of the AIP.”
I can’t imagine how it does any of those things at all.
Thank you @br00no,
As I mentioned the implementation of AIPs is at the discretion of the Foundation, and we believe this implementation is optimised for usability given the large amount of confusion and feedback received on the Abstain option.
AIP-200 passed our governance process, which means that Abstain is an option on Snapshot for our voters. It was specifically mentioned in the AIP that “Abstentions do not affect the outcome of the vote.”
Given the context that Abstentions do not affect the outcome of the vote, and our voters are still given the option to Abstain under this implementation, I am curious to hear your feedback as to whether or not you take issue with the implementation itself, or the decision making process that led to this implementation?
-Amplify
Sure. Can you answer my questions first please?
Who made this decision, when, and where can I read how or why this was deemed to “to optimise for security, usability, to protect APE holders, and otherwise to effect the intent of the AIP.
As I mentioned above, myself as a Governance WG Steward and author of AIP-200, in conjunction with WebSlinger, our DAO Administrators, with oversight from the Special Council made the decision to implement Basic Voting.
This decision was made over the course of the last week or so while reading all the feedback surrounding Abstain. There is no press release or documentation you can read surrounding this decision.
I encourage you to watch the snapshot space today at 6PM PT when the two AIPs go live for voting so that you can see in real time the effect of these changes. I think you will find they align with your expectations.
https://snapshot.org/#/apecoin.eth
-Amplify
Question: if I am an AIP author, will I still be able to see Abstain votes before voting closes? (for a chance to reach out to voters for feedback, for example) Thanks.
