AIP-316: Fantasy MMORPG Game - Powered Exclusively By ApeCoin

Fantasy MMORPG Game - Powered Exclusively By ApeCoin

Ecosystem Fund Allocation

Alganon is a fantasy MMORPG game with PvE and PvP elements. More extensive info is available at the game’s legacy website.

You can access legacy game assets below.

  1. Game Images
  2. Game Videos
  3. 20-min Narrated (English) Game Preview (April 2023 Dev Build)
  4. Script for 20-min Game Preview
  5. Alganon Comic (partnership with DC Comics)

Alganon is a completed game and so, it will retain all its pre-existing gameplay elements. It will however have specific Web3 elements integrated such as an Ethereum based blockchain backend, integrated Web3 wallet, tokenomics, and an NFT marketplace.

Derek Smart, the President and CTO of 3000AD, Inc, is a videogame industry legend who has been in the industry for over three decades.

LinkedIn: Derek Smart - CEO & CTO - 3000AD, Inc | LinkedIn

3000AD, Inc, based on south Florida, was formed in 1992 by videogame industry icon Derek Smart.

Today, we are one of the oldest independent videogame development studios.

Our first game, the legendary Battlecruiser 3000AD (aka BC3K), was released in 1996 by Take Two Interactive (TTWO). Accounting for over 14% of its revenue, BC3K was one of the titles included in that company’s SEC profile when it went public in 1997.

To date, we have developed and published over a dozen games across several franchise properties that we own.

Over the years we have had various partnership and collaboration deals with various publishers and partners such as Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Valve, Sony, GameStop and many others both in the gaming industry and in various international markets.


We are all aware that gaming continues to be one of the many ways, if not the main way, to grow and engage a community. Gaming brings people together, it forges relationships, builds friendships and creates a nurturing environment for like-minded people.

This Web2 game, which is 100% completed, was purchased by my 3000AD (About Us) studio a few years ago. Our dev team was responsible for completing the game, creating two expansion packs, getting it on Steam, creating various publishing and marketing partnerships etc.

In late 2021, with myself as the lead and primary investor, together with two investor friends, I created a new Web3 startup, Wide Span Ventures, specifically to develop and publish Web3 games. The upgrading and relaunching of Alganon is our first Web3 game for release in 2024; to be followed by another Web2 game, a combined arms MMOFPS, set for release in late 2025 using the same Web3 tech and practices incorporated into and created for Alganon.

There aren’t very many Web3 games out there which are within the realms of standard Web2 games. And those that are rumored or announced, are several years away from completion because making games is a long-term, grueling and very expensive process. And most, in fact up to 90% of games, will ultimately fail.

In fact, most Web3 games today are blatant cash grabs which forget to bring the fun. In Alganon, an almost $30M game project that has been tried and tested over the years - and only ever released in North America, the ApeCoin community has the opportunity to be the first community to roll out a worthy Web2/Web3 crossover game that is as fun as it is addictive.

We are currently far ahead of the pack because we have a completed core AA game that’s built on a “Game First” principle; and Web3 games are shaping up to be the future of gaming.

An MMORPG game like Alganon takes years and several million Dollars to make. Its original design is perfectly suited for Web3.

Though the game isn’t as old as some other MMORPG games (e.g. Everquest, WoW, Runescape etc), the visuals require various improvements. And those improvements also require an upgrade of the graphics component of the custom game engine which was built specifically for the game.


Alganon was developed using an in-house custom game engine that includes the client, server and various backend services which power its economy, user data, world, web UI etc.

The graphics kernel is part of the legacy C/C++ custom game engine based on DX9. We are currently (it’s currently in testing) porting to DX11. This allows us to take advantage of visual improvements which will complement the new 2D/3D art assets - all of which are being recreated at a higher quality while not compromising the performance of the game. The game will retain its colorful visual style, however it will be more stylized (similar to Fortnite and its ilk).

We are also doing a parallel test port to UE5 via the game’s editor which uses the game client. This port, which will take longer, will also help us determine whether or not it’s worth the time and expense of adopting the UE5 graphics kernel. The key selling point of a UE5 port is that it makes it far easier to on-board additional team members down the road as-needed. It’s a lot more difficult and time-consuming to on-board engineers to use a custom game engine.

As a 100% completed Web2 game, the bulk of the coding for this Web3 integration by our team and other third-parties is in the Web3 implementation and visual improvements as follows:

  1. Blockchain backend integration
  2. Third-party in-game Web3 wallet integration + UI/UX
  3. Third-party NFT marketplace integration + UI/UX
  4. Complete upgrade of the game’s entire 2D/3D asset library
  5. Upgrade of the graphics engine from DX9 to DX11 (and later to UE5 if needed)

The DX9 to DX11 graphics engine upgrade is immaterial in terms of scope. In fact, it’s all but completed.

The 2D/3D art assets improvement takes up about 80% of the project and is being done in parallel using experienced third-party content creation studios (such as Quarantine Studios and Ironbelly Studios and individuals who worked with us on the legacy Alganon game) who have worked on our games over the years. As a result, the dev work will be completed long before the 2D/3D art assets are completed and integrated. It is, after all, a massive MMO game.

For Web3 deployment, since the creation of the startup in 2021, we have engaged various third-parties to assist with the project. As such, we have select contracts, SOW, and proposals from groups such as KapitalDAO / Fenryr for on-going general advisory in all aspects related to Web3 deployment and management of this project - including community engagement; Altura for use of their API and toolset for an in-game wallet and white label NFT marketplace, Catalin Alexandru Consulting SRL for on-going workups of the game’s economics and tokenomics adjustments, Polygon BD (and other comparable chains) for use of their blockchain backend API etc.


Alganon, as an MMORPG, is already a massive game with a lot of assets. It is currently a client-only download.

The game will retain the pre-existing micro-transactions (MT) model.

For the Web3 version, we will probably only be converting high value consumables and assets to NFTs; though there’s no real reason that all the game’s items couldn’t be converted as such.

NFT items will be available in the game’s pre-existing marketplace (which is being upgraded to support NFT items) and possibly also on OpenSea (TBD).

These NFT items include ancillary items, potions, spells, weapons, player skins, pets, mounts, and land parcels.

NFT items will be traded via the game’s current cash shop which will be augmented using a third-party White label NFT marketplace API or OpenSea (TBD).

We are currently working with a third-party consulting firm to revise the game’s pre-existing economics model to take into account robust Web3 tokenomics models.

The game already supports both F2P and B2P. This allows us to determine the barrier of entry. For example:

  1. Will it be F2P with no barrier (no cost) of entry?
  2. Will it be B2P and thus require $APE to play? If so, how much $APE?
  3. Will the $APE requirement be based on tiers (which determine what you get)?
  4. Will there be daily reward drops for regular players?
  5. Will there be special tiers for owners of Yuga Labs’ BAYC and MAYC asset holders?
  6. Will there be special tiers for Mocaverse asset owners?

The game will retain the pre-existing in-game currency called $Tribute. The introduction of the $APE token will allow it to map to $Tribute at a specific rate. e.g. in the pre-existing game, $1.00 (fiat) is the equivalent of 185 $Tribute.

In short, you buy $Tribute using $APE, then buy items and other assets in the game using $Tribute.

NOTE: Due to regulatory concerns, we cannot allow a $Tribute to $APE transfer as that puts us in the money transfer business.


Due to its design, Alganon does not support UGC in the general sense of the term.

However, every single 2D/3D asset in the game can be reskinned. For example, we could have ApeCoin logos on banners in the street, on buildings, on flag poles.

Also, we can integrate - with permission from Yuga Labs - 3D models of BAYC & MAYC characters so that you can enter and play the game as your own Ape avatar. Same applies to Mocaverse character assets. It’s all automatic.

The only work involved is in the creation of a set number of 2D/3D art assets which can then be used to map your BAYC/MAYC/MOCA avatar to.

Also, because certain visible weapons are sized according to the pre-existing characters, additional work will be required to match these to the new character models. That would also include character animation creation.

We can also incorporate NFT shields (see AIP-254) and similar NFT art assets. All completely seamless because we have a fully functional game engine. It just works.

Similarly, creating land in Alganon is trivial. We created new land parcels in the original game and its expansion packs. However, for this Web3 effort, we won’t be able to sell land on pre-existing parcels as that would break many game quests. Instead, for future expansions, we can create land parcels and sell them separately. Due to the game’s design, we can then sell pre-existing buildings (houses, fences etc.) assets (aka prefabs) to create towns and entire cities on the parcels of land. As in the original game, players will still be able to move from parcel to parcel without issue as that’s already designed into the game.

There are many benefits to the ApeCoin DAO.

  1. $APE TOKEN USE: For a period of 12 MONTHS from the date of initial implementation (Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate, Final) in the game, we will EXCLUSIVELY use the $APE token as the game’s official cryptocurrency.

  2. GAMING: ApeCoin immediately gets its own full blown MMORPG game in a massively popular game genre, and which can be rebranded and reskinned as-needed. This will attract thousands of gamers beyond the current 130K count of the pre-existing token holders.

    Web2 gamers who are already familiar with the game, will no doubt return to it, and we have taken steps to ensure that on-boarding them to Web3 is a seamless experience which goes from in-game wallet creation to buying $APE. We’ve got it all covered.

    We can of course also allow fiat, but there’s no point in doing that with the ApeCoin licensed version of the game.

  3. COMMUNITY: The ApeCoin community, though relatively small in comparison to other gaming communities, has the potential to greatly expand its user base via this game.

    No more trolling the Discord server or endless scrolling on Discourse. You can fire up the game and go trade, explore, and adventure with your friends. Or just hang around at sunset and chat using text or voice comms. The game server runs 24-7 (except when it resets); so even if you get bored harassing the thousands of game NPCs or doing quests, you can always be assured that there’s a live person to chat or play with at any time of day.

  4. CLOUT: Compared to pre-existing and upcoming Web3 games - nothing - compares to Alganon. The ApeCoin DAO being the first to co-fund the release of a core Web2 game bridged over to Web3 creates the kind of marketing, clout and credibility that marketing can never buy. The game is here. It works. It’s been tried and tested for many years. And it’s a fun gaming experience as per the many online reviews of the legacy game. I believe that this will set the bar - even the impetus - for others with similar Web2 properties to consider a similar collaboration with ApeCoin DAO. This isn’t some empty Metaverse “game” experience nor a promise of what is to come. The game is here. It’s playable. It’s extensible. And it’s coming to the ApeCoin DAO.

  5. MARKETING: Where applicable in our marketing and PR efforts for the game, we will mention that the game uses the $APE token, and that the Web3 release was co-funded through a grant from the ApeCoin DAO. We will also use the official ApeCoin logo as-needed in various marketing efforts as well as in the game.

  • The Alganon game will be launched on the ETH network.
  • The $APE token will be the exclusive cryptocurrency token for the game for a period of 12 months (renewable as-needed).
  • The ApeCoin DAO and the $APE token will be marketed as part of the game’s marketing efforts.
  • Written permission or a licensing agreement from the Ape Foundation for the use of the ApeCoin logo.
  • Implementation of the $APE token as well as requisite development, testing and auditing of the associated smart contract.
  • Implementation of the $APE token in the game’s backend systems as well as in its Web3 wallet UI/UX structure.

The creation, testing, implementation and auditing of the smart contract and $APE token will take place during the course of the game’s Web3 implementation.

The above period will run from Web3 development and implementation builds (Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate) through to the final release and deployment of the game in the Q3/24 to Q4/24 time frame.

Total Ecosystem Grant: $500K - to be paid in $APE


  • $300K (1 year, renewable*)
  • $200K (one-time)

*Renewable upon request at the sole discretion of the Ape Foundation or the Metaverse Working Group; and at the same $300K cost, within 90 days of current term expiration. No subsequent AIP required.


NOTE: The AIP page cannot accept additional characters for everything below. So, I copied this here, while moving the previous comment (ComicCon images) to the next comment placeholder.

This is addressed in a follow-up Q&A comment below. Adding here for clarity.

After the term license expires, the following happens:

  • Add those server IPs to the public server pool
  • Remove the restrictions (e.g. keys, admin access etc) specifically used for ApeCoin DOA
  • Disable all the ApeCoin DAO game keys because they were granted as part of the license
  • Remove the ApeCoin branding from the game because it came with license partnership
  • Retain the use of $APE token - assuming the US govt didn’t kill it by then - for crypto until a new token partnership is done; at which time the $APE token will be removed.

The ApeCoin DAO gamer accounts will be retained and NOT wiped. Those accounts will be able to login and play the game on any existing Alganon game servers as they previously could. There just won’t be any private (to ApeCoin DAO) servers.

The 36 game servers are part of the license because the ApeCoin DAO isn’t a corp entity with the ability to provision, host, maintain, fund etc. these servers.

If the ApeCoin DAO wishes to take ownership of these 36 servers at the end of the term, we would turn them over to the Ape Foundation. This would entail the Ape Foundation opening it’s own datacenter account, add KYC/KYB info, add monthly payment (colo hosting, bandwidth, IP addresses) info etc. And we will provide the remote access credentials to the servers via a secure encrypted data vault.

If instead of the above the ApeCoin DAO wishes to have us setup a specific set (3 servers = 1 game server cluster = 5,000 clients) of servers at the desired datacenter at its own cost, we will setup and install the game on those servers, and invoice for those costs. This being the case, we would submit an invoice proposal which would outline the steps and costs involved with such tasking. We will then perform the required tasks pertaining to this.

The AGE is a custom game engine suite designed and developed for an MMORPG. It is comprised of a suite of technologies which includes the World Builder System, a very advanced game editor which uses the same rendering (currently DX9/DX10) engine as the game client in a WYSIWG fashion. Whatever you see in the WBS is exactly how it will appear in the game client. And it has been extended and updated over the years to support additional features.

This design allows the AGE to be used to develop any MMO game - and not just a game like Alganon. This not the same as “re-skinning” whereby you change the textures and materials of pre-existing game assets. The AGE can be used to build an entirely new game - from scratch. It is a full multiplayer engine suite - no external components required.

The AGE is not for public licensing. However, as part of this AIP and during the license term, I will consider licensing it - at a low cost - to any [vetted] ApeCoin dev team that wishes to create a game that features ApeCoin. I will NOT allow for it to be used for the creation of any other themed game. For example, should there be a competent dev team looking to build an Ape themed MMO game, or even a complete re-skin of Alganon to feature Apes (and other IP used with permission from the owner), I would consider it.

While there are a variety of game engines (Unity, UnrealEngine, Godot etc), they still require a significant investment of resources to make a game. You can’t just download the engine and build a game with it. With AGE, everything is already there - including a full blown scripting engine. You just bring your own content.

The lands of Alganon are vast and filled with vast landscapes, lush forests, boundless mountains, winding rivers and all kinds of fantasy wonder.

I saw AIP-304 (Digital Arts Museum) asking for 11M $APE to buy NFTs for display in museums.

I offer an alternative.

We can build an Ape museum inside Alganon. As you can see from the main city of Asheran above, we can put it anywhere in the city center or in the surrounding landscape. The museum would be a building designed like a museum, and inside we would display (on walls, ceilings etc) selected NFTs.

The building would be designed within the architectural guidelines for the game, and we could erect an Ape statue (of the genesis NFT) outside.

To start, the interior would be designed to host up to 100 NFT images of various sizes depending on location. If future expansion is needed, the museum building can be expanded by creating additional buildings (museum wings) connected to the main building.

We can do this as part of the on-going content creation for the game rerelease and at NO COST to the ApeCoin DAO license. We will setup an “ApeCoin Museum Fund” wallet to which Apes can donate for the creation of this in-game museum. I estimate the costs to be $100K USD (paid in $APE). Once this wallet is fully funded, work on the Ape Museum would commence.

In AIP-98, a third-party ApeCoin Marketplace was funded and subsequently created by @zheerwagen.

Though the Web3 components of the Alganon re-release features an NFT marketplace alongside the game’s pre-existing item marketplace, if desired, at NO COST to the ApeCoin DAO, we can integrate this marketplace into the game. This will allow gamers to view and/or buy NFTs directly from the marketplace, further extending the reach and exposure of ApeCoin and the Ape ecosystem.

While it’s mentioned in the AIP as part of the USER GENERATED CONTENT section, I wanted to expand a bit on this, and from a technical & engagement stand point.

As the game stands, and aside from the previously detailed Web3 components as well as the custom game engine graphics improvements, the entire catalog of game assets (literally everything seen in those screen shots) are being updated. That’s the bulk of the work as previously mentioned.

Though the use of third-party avatars (e.g. Ape, Moca, Koda etc) can be targeted for post-release addition without waiting for another expansion pack, it occurs to me that for the ApeCoin license of the game, that this can be implemented sooner rather than later. But it would come with additional costs, which would have to come either in a separate AIP or as an option as part of this current AIP.

Here’s how it would work.

  1. All of the game’s playable characters can be replaced with Ape and Moca characters. This isn’t a big deal, they’re just 3D models with textures/materials, animations etc. They would ofc have to be scaled according to game’s wielded (e.g. swords) weapons. Also, the animation skeletons would need to be revised according to the new characters. One of the content creation tasks is a completely new set of animations (both characters, NPCs and animals) anyway.

  2. Given the diverse nature of the Ape and Moca characters, it would be far too much work to create all of them. So, a specific number/set (e.g. 12 Ape, 12 Moca etc) with different attributes, characteristics etc could be created. Then, at account creation, you just pick which character (of a set) that you want to use, give it your pre-existing handle/name etc. and go play (or just explore) the game.

The end result of the above is that Apes and Moca characters (and whatever other Yuga Labs and Animoca are allowed to be used with permission from the IP owners) can adventure alongside each other in the game world. Nothing about the game’s world, quests etc. will change. The only change is that instead of looking like these characters in-game, you will look like your prized Apes or Mocas.

That’s not all…

Due to the game’s design, entire new lands can be created (using the game editor). This is exactly what we did for the main game and the two expansion packs.

So, if we just wanted to build, for example, a land just for Apes, this can be done - from scratch. Then, cities, encampments etc can be created using the game’s pre-existing 3D asset libraries.

And that would look like this game map. See the others already linked in the AIP.

Make no mistake, it’s still a LOT of work, but the tools and tech are already there as used in creating the game and its expansions.

Basically, using the Alganon Game Engine (AGE), it’s feasible to create an entire expansion pack experience that’s specifically designed for Apes (or Moca). Complete with mission scripting, events etc.

And there needn’t be missions, quests or any of that. It could just be an experience similar to Otherside (which is a totally different experience). And if this unique world is connected to the main Alganon lands, then if you want to leave your lands and go play the normal Alganon game, you can do that because that’s where all the adventuring, questings etc exist. Basically, the unique Ape lands (!) would be like a base camp which can only be accessible by Apes etc.

The downside of all this is that it takes time to do. From planning to design to building. And so, even for a post-release expansion pack with this, we’re talking about 8-12 months at a cost of about $1M+ depending on how nuts we want to go with the size and scope. And if it’s planned to be done in time for the game’s re-release in 2023, then it can be done in parallel with the on-going work. Which of course means that it needs to be budgeted and the content creation team would need to be expanded.

Just fuel for thought based on some discussions that I have been having with others.

ps. Indie devs like us are super creative. So, this sort of thing is just par for the course.



We will be creating additional comics for the game’s Web3 launch in 2024.


Some context around this AIP idea and how it came about.

I didn’t just come here, throw up an AIP asking for grant money.

When I first game to the ApeCoin DAO on June 27th, it was for a specific reason. I wasn’t bored, cruising the Internet etc. Like I did with other Web3 communities, I have been popping in and out of here since Mar 2022, shortly after creating a startup studio (Wide Span Ventures) to build Web3 games - separate from my Web2 studio, 3000AD. For me, it was a new frontier to explore, and I wanted to be a part of that by pioneering something that, once again, would be notable and legendary.

And before I got here, I was already waging a silent war against Web3 scam artists posiing as game devs. You can read my LinkedIn articles as well as my Web3 articles on Medium. Sadly, I don’t get to write as much as I used to, but the fact remains that you can - right now - go and look at the dates of each Web3 article that I have written, then go to your search engine, put in key words - read. You know the result? I have been right about every single thing that I have written regarding Web3 gaming. Specifically that you’re never - ever - going to succeed with a Web3 game if you don’t build the game first. Web3 is just tech. There’s nothing special about it. I regard blockchain as I would backend tech like networking, graphics, AI etc. It doesn’t matter the tech, if the game sucks, it’s going to fail. That’s it. All of it.

So, when I came here, I had a simple plan - and I was very vocal about it. That being, to integrate a worthy Web3 community into my new Web3 gaming initiative and to see if in fact I could make a difference. I was never part of the Web3 NFT craze for the same reason that I collect stamps not bottle caps, have expensive oil paintings, but not over-priced JPEGs. In fact, most of the NFTs that I own were either gifted to me or they were free. I never saw Web3 as a money-making venture. Then again, financial gain has never been a big motivator for me. It’s why, if I build a game that 10 people buy, I will continue to build games for those 10 people - and never jumping to whatever trend there is so I can sell to 15 people. It’s why I release my games for free after a few years of them being for sale. I have done this routinely. And the day I die, as per my will, all my works and IP will be in the public domain - free.

With Web3, I just wanted to prove that, as a seasoned gamedev, I could build a Web3 game that wasn’t the cash-grab crap that’s out there. I didn’t care about the price of tokens, the trends etc. None of that interest me. It’s specially why, for the APE community which is about 0.472% (no kidding) of my worst selling game, didn’t matter to me. If any of my games had sold less than 130K (APE wallet count - including multiples) copies, I would be out of business by now. In other words, I didn’t come here to boost my Web3 image, I didn’t come here to create an army. I didn’t come here looking for clout. I didn’t come here to sell anything. I have done all of that - and more - by myself. You know how? By building things. It’s what I do. It’s what I’ve always done. And I got exceptionally good at it - even with all the hate directed toward me at some point or another. That’s a measure of SUCCESS.

More importantly, I believe that you can’t build a game for Web3 without being in a Web3 community to see what they like, what they do, what they want etc. Sure, there’s overlap with gamers in both spaces, but the fact is that when the likes of Yuga Labs is getting nowhere despite their best efforts and buckets of cash and experienced people, you know that something isn’t working. You don’t use Web2 gamers to make a Web3 game. And you don’t make a Web3 game without taking into account Web2 gamers. Doing that is how you end up with failures of every Web3 game that fails to find its footing.

We are currently far ahead of the pack because we have a completed core AA game that’s built on a “Game First” principle; and Web3 games are shaping up to be the future of gaming.

So, after being here a month now, while hesitating to even put up this AIP, a group of great people in this community, encouraged me to just go for it. You know yourselves.

Thanks for the support and insight. A lot of work went into this, so I hope that it provides as much clarity as feasibly possible.


Just a quick shout out to the scope and potential impact of this idea. It brings a significant cost to the DAO, but I also believe that ambitious ideas that have a chance to actually move the needle and get new users into the ecosystem are what we need. I want to see a lot more big, ambitious ideas like this.

Appreciate the considerable effort that went into getting this to the AIP stage. Genuinely interested to see how the comments shake out on this.


Interesting read Derek… Particularly for someone like me who doesn’t have any gaming background.

I thought it was pretty cool to learn more about what’s involved with creating a game like this, even when just altering existing components. Nice job. Hope to see some positive engagement which may help assimilate into a nicely balanced presence on ApeCoinDAO channels.

All the best with your proposal :+1:



Interested to see how this plays out too.

1 Like

I have so many questions, so I’ll get right to it.

  1. It looks like Alganon was initially released in 2009 by a developer called Quest Online. You were brought on as president and then later took control of the company. Links here and here. Can you confirm this? Also does Quest still own any part of the game or is it completely yours when you took over 13 years ago?
  2. This gameplay video was released 9 years ago. The game preview you showed is nearly identical to that. What upgrades to the look have you done if any? I see that your grant is partially for this, but have there been any improvements before this in the 9 years?
  3. It looks like in 2015 you actually released the game. Here are the reviews for it. Only 35% are positive with only about 167 reviews. Generally games that have decent number of players have 1000+ reviews, and popular games easily have 10,000+ reviews, most of them positive. I assume the game did not do well. Even claims of review bombing is hard to believe in this case because there are so few reviews to begin with. What changes have you made since then to improve the game?
  4. While reading through the reviews, there are few things that keep coming up. The outdated graphics, which I asked about before. The other one is micro transactions to do simple things. You intend to keep it. Don’t you think it will hurt playability and annoy users to keep this model, especially after you’ve received a large sum of money from the DAO?
  5. Another big thing that comes up in most of the reviews is that you ban people for criticizing the game. But here you mention you are willing to work with the DAO but only you have the sole authority on who will act as a liaison. This worries me - people critical of you will be fired. What assurances can you give us that you are open to criticism?
  6. Overall this looks like a re-release of a very old game with with the web3 label and ApeCoin sticker on it. Can you clarify how this is not the case?
  7. Looks like game is playable only on windows - can you confirm this?
  8. The license price is steep for what we are getting - a repolished game released 13 years ago, a license for only 5 years, only on one platform and only one region. Plus you get to keep the micro transaction revenue. That seems like a bad deal for the DAO. Can you justify this a little more?
  9. You are allocating 36 servers for us, which I think is a complete waste of money. We should start small and scale up as required. If the game gets popular, no one will have issues about funding it more. Are you open to just starting with a few servers and reducing the cost, given most of the work is already done?
  10. What happens when the license expires after 5 years?
  11. Since the web2 version is done, is it possible to test that before the web3 integration?
  12. You mentioned the game is using a custom game engine. In game development this is rarely a good thing because it won’t be optimized for all modern hardware. When you release for us, will the port to a modern engine be guaranteed?

This game is a proper game! I congratulate you on this Proposal. I am not sure if the DAO will accept Apecoin burning. Can a portion of Apecoin be burnt, I note tokenomics are open for discussion.



For the benefit of this AIP and for the DAO, I will respond to this. But what I am not going to do is engage in any back and forth that’s going to derail this AIP discussion.

So, I am going to put on my professional hat and respond to this in a manner befitting the DAO. I will not be responding to anything that is irrelevant and/or off-topic.


There’s nothing to confirm, and none of this is material or relevant to the AIP; nor is it a secret.

In the AIP, I laid out my role in the project and company. I didn’t “take control” of Quest Online. That’s patently FALSE. And the links that you posted - specifically designed to obfuscate this point and cast myself and the project in a poor light - is shameful. I mean, it’s all right there on the first page of Google. 1, 2, 3, 4

  • The investor (the lead was a friend) hired me and my team to complete the game. We took it over in 2010.
  • Under my leadership, we completed and released the game
  • Then we released not one, but two expansion packs, got it on Steam, did a slew of marketing deals etc. It’s all documented online
  • When the investor and owner died in late 2017, heirs having recouped, wanted an exit
  • Because I was running it, I knew the value of the game, the revenue, KPI etc just like all investors and someone who has been in the gamedev biz forever - I bought it - and thus became the owner of QOL and Alganon (it’s only product), which encompasses the IP, trademark etc.
  • We did additional work, localized it etc.
  • As the servers were all legacy, I took the game offline - then migrated it to our own datacenter server farm.
  • After much work, rather than relaunch the game as-is, I decided to do additional work to improve on it. So we did that too.
  • Then the pandemic hit - and the world went sideways.
  • Then Web3 noise started, and I decided that instead of just re-launching it, I would re-tool for some Web3 components and relaunch it. New eyes. New look etc. The OG cash flow cow. Happens in games all the time.
  • Since late 2021 and to this month’s billing, I have put exactly $2.1M into the Web3 project relaunch. There are one or two people here who have seen the original pitch deck for the game and which was created in late 2021 when I thought that I would need to raise additional funding for what was a three year project.

Screenshot 2023-08-03 065341

As owner of Quest Online (QOL) from the purchase, I had no use for another Web2 studio (I already have mine, 3000AD - which only exclusively does sci-fi games, not fantasy games). So, we closed QOL in late 2021, and that same month we formed Wide Span Ventures (WSV) to do soley Web3 games - again, separate from my 3000AD studio.

You can see the QOL closure docs here and here. And the WSV formation docs here. Note the dates.

Then my studio, 3000AD, which owned the Alganon game and IP, sold that to WSV - on paper, thus putting a $30M asset in the startup. And so, Alganon ended up in WSV. The same will later happen to the second game, Line Of Defense (the MMO, not the RTS spin-off game which we did for Microsoft), which my studio also owns.

The attorneys closed QOL on 12-14-21 and formed WSV on 12-16-21.

I only owned QOL from 03/09/18 (date of deal closing) to the date it was officially closed on 12-14-21. That’s almost 4 yrs. Not 13 yrs.


Yes - the video you linked is one of the pre-launch promo videos. In fact, it’s one of the videos in the links provided at the top of the AIP. So what?

The 20-min training video (it’s not a preview - it’s a complete game walkthrough) linked in the AIP is NOT the same. It was done by Steven K (an original member of the Alganon project who still works for me on the project) this past April. It’s used as a training video for new members of the team because you can’t sit down and teach devs, CS, testers etc on an MMO in the same manner that you can other simple games. We make several videos like that for training purposes, and we plan on doing similar ones for the final release of the game because text tutorials can only go so far. It’s why that video comes with a script that outlines the many core features of the game. Again, that’s in the AIP.

The training video doesn’t show any visual improvements because we haven’t done any visual upgrades to the game yet. And I never - not once - claimed that we had. All the graphics engine work is internal. There’s a LOT more to making a game than just visuals.

Work on Alganon has continued before I bought it, after I bought it, when I took it off-line and up to the start of the relaunch. In fact, we didn’t complete the Visual Studio overhaul until late 2022 (!). That wasn’t fun. And we had to do that because new third-party API tools won’t work (compile/build) on legacy VS2008 builds.

Similarly, all the game servers were running on legacy Windows Server machines. ALL had to be upgraded - specifically for security reasons. And we ended up having to e-waste a lot of servers and replace them with new ones, new HDD etc. I hired a third-party company (Technology Trading Partners out in MD) to drop, package, ship, and rack all the legacy servers. Then we got to work rebuilding. That was 8 months. An a sh*t ton of money.

This is Jon H (also one of the original Alganon devs who also works for me) and I at the datacenter earlier this year when we went to install some additional hardware. That entire wall is comprised of servers for Alganon and my other games.


Did not do well? Yeah man, that’s false.

That’s the pre-existing game login screen as it exists right this minute. The Green Steam button allows you to login using your Steam account. The Account Name/Password allow you to login using your legacy account created from our website.

In fact, you can go - right now - and create an account on the game’s website. But you won’t be able to download or play the game without dev access to the game download and servers.

See the warning in that image?

The game was already released, online, and working. We updated and published on Steam in 2015 - for the first time. Prior to that, it was only available via direct download (from the game’s website) via a CDN server.

From 2009 - 2015, the game had exactly (and this is directly from our reports), 379,483 unique accounts.

There was no way to transition pre-existing gamers from our server to Steam without gamers losing ALL their stats, progress etc. Why? Because Steam owns their data - and we devs have no access to it. Hence, fewer engagement numbers on Steam.

These are the Steam stats before I took the game off-line when I bought it. Though it’s capped, the game - on Steam alone - had (and I am quoting this from the SteamWorks dashboard) - 241,718 users. Due to how Steam works, those are not duplicates - those are actual owners of the game.

This image is from SteamSpy the same day that Jon H manually shutdown the servers and I disabled the Steam store page.

As a result of putting the game on Steam, the game’s user base was fragmented between our deliverable system and Steam.

What you believe by way of reviews is immaterial and irrelevant. The online reviews of the game, coupled with the media stories, entire YT channels etc - tells the full story that this was - and still is - a much loved game. That’s why, rather than see it sunset, I bought it. Why would I do that when I could have put those millions of Dollars of my own money - no investors involved - into my own studio of 30+ years?



The visuals are out-dated, yes. This isn’t news. It’s in the AIP.

The game was released in 2009. We did in fact do lots of visual improvements in both of the expansion packs (The Dawning & Rise Of The Ourobani) within the scope of the custom game engine.

The original creators were building a WoW clone. I had no part of that because I came in years later. And in doing so - for computers at the time - they had to bear in mind the computational taxes on the CPU and GPU. The graphics engine is based on a custom build of TrueVision3D - now deprecated and no longer supported - a DX9 engine. It had none of the graphics advancements (e.g. PBR, materials etc).

They created an MMO game, not a mobile game. It’s a massive game.

For those reasons, it became clear that there was no way to improve on the visual assets without upgrading the graphics engine. And so we started doing that. And then the decision was to either spend 3 months upgrading TV3D (we had a source code license) from DX9 to DX11 or spend 12-14 months porting from TV3D to UE5.

I chose to do both. Why?

  • Upgrading TV3D allows us to improve on the game’s visuals tremendously, though there’s only so far that we can go. And having only 4 people (me being one of them) know the graphics engine, means that it takes a lot of time to on-board new engineers down the road. And this being an indie studio, doesn’t have the luxury of 50-man engineers.

  • Upgrading to UE5 is the best path forward in terms of speed, adaptability, tools (pre-built) , on-boarding new people, creating expansion packs etc. For UE5, there’s so much talent out there that you couldn’t throw a stone and not hit one.

And Unity3D isn’t powerful enough for the game; and unlike TV3D–>UE5 - both of which are C++ - using that would have been a 12-18 month task; for little gain.

Option1 gets the rerelease done and out quicker and the visuals significantly improved, while still having a lot of underlying custom code that needs to be maintained as tech moves along. And it’s cheaper. It also retains the game’s performance while also making it faster. You can Google articles on DX9 to DX11 ports if you want.

Option2 adds 9-12 months (even when done in parallel with other work) to the work and is a massive risk to the game because then, with a new graphics kernel, we also have to upgrade the game’s editor to use it. AND we have to go through a longer test cycle because whatever will break is going to break. So then, we’re talking about a late 2025 game release or even 2026 and about $1.2M added to the dev budget. Why would I do that?

Also, when you’re doing engine work, it means that literally everything is broken. So, you have to maintain two base versions. In this case, the legacy Web2 version and the Web3 component version.

How do you on-board new team members if they can’t run the game? How are they going to learn it?

FYI. The combined quotes from the two content creation studios cited in the AIP, is $1.6m over a span of 16 months. Each of the game’s expansion packs cost approximately $750K.


The game’s MT system and econ model are tried, tested and proven. It’s an MMO, that’s how they are done. And if ain’t broke, there’s nothing to fix.

And since the advent of MMO games, gamers have been wound up about MT in games. Until loot boxes came along. Alganon is no different.

And amid that noise, you can go to the game’s website and read everything about the game’s MT. It’s very simple. And there are no plans to mess with something that just works just because some people don’t like it. Not to mention that I hired a team specifically for the game’s economics model.

Again, it’s in the AIP.

I’m glad that you think $5M - in my field - is “a large sum of money”. It’s not. Welcome to the big leagues. Enjoy the fish.


This is unfounded, blatantly based on conjecture, and is a veiled attack on my character.

There is a stark difference between constructive criticism and abuse. I know the difference. Many people don’t. And when, like me, you’re famous, a person of color, a minority etc. the lines tend to get blurred even more.

Yes - like all game communities, we ban people who break the rules. No exceptions. Those who get banned, get to make a lot of noise about it, go cry in their cornflakes, and create a mob that makes a lot of inconsequential noise. Just like cheaters. It’s gaming. This isn’t news. And yes, review bombing is a thing. You probably missed that whole Star Citizen saga which I documented here.

I am not inclined to give assurances on things that are immaterial, inconsequential and without merit. And certainly not to blatant virtue signaling. Sorry, not going to do it.

This is a SOFTWARE LICENSE. I explained in the AIP what that is.

When companies, e.g. Blizzard, license their games to others, they have zero control over how that company (licensee) runs their business.

As a license, the DAO gets to do what it wants on its games servers. It’s no different from Discourse or Discord. And I don’t control that. And it’s specifically why I decided to create ApeCoin Ambassadors who we can train and they can adopt best practices for governing game communities. And given the liabilities involved with that, it’s why I took on the responsibility of hiring that team and training them so that they can effectively handle the community on the servers in much the same way that it’s done on Discourse and Discord.

I don’t run a DAO. I run multi-million Dollar studios. That comes with responsibilities, procedures, rules, guidelines and accountability. I don’t run my studios based on feelings.

And yes, I do have sole authority on who I will hire and fire; and it’s not based on friends, feelings or any of that. It’s based on merit, qualifications, experience and legal factors surrounding the hire. And that’s my call.

The people that I will hire from the community will work for me - not the DAO. And if this bugs you or anyone, the solution is simple. I won’t hire anyone from the DAO. Instead, I will hire and put together a separate team, hired elsewhere, to assist the DAO until it can put together its own WG. Or the DAO can spend the next two years figuring out how to elect people to manage its licensed game servers. Makes no difference to me because it’s inconsequential to the game.

In addition, I put that [hiring] option in the AIP because I believe that it gives something back to the very many talented people here. It’s a grant. It’s my money. I can spend it how I see fit. But I chose to give some of it back - to this community. Doing this helps the DAO. If you want to buy a car that you can’t drive only so that you can go into your garage and stare at it from time to time, who am I to argue?

Let me just make this clear while we’re on the subject of my personality:

I have never - ever - fired anyone at 3000AD. And I formed that studio in 1992. People who have come through my studio currently work at major companies, including lots of game companies. Some left and went back to college. Some left for better opportunities because after all I run a lean, mean, indie studio - and I am notoriously frugal when it comes to how I spend money personally and professionally. So, when people gain experience, they move on to bigger and better things.

e.g. when I was brought into the QOL, their monthly team salary burn rate - no joke - was over $250K. By the time I was done, integrated my 3000AD team into the process, they were down to around $100K.

And, as an OG lifetime member, I was on the board of the IGDA (FL) chapter for many years mentoring young people wishing to break into the industry etc. I am on the board of no less than 9 software companies, with one major one still trying to bring me on-board. In fact, that’s how I ended up heading up QOL as a favor to a dear friend. My Facebook and LinkedIn feed is chock-full of industry people from all tiers of the industry.

So, do you, for one minute, think that I built my studio, shipped over a dozen games, have so many relationships and connections by being the person that some who don’t like me portray me to be? Do you know how many studios have come and gone since I started doing this in 1989?

There’s a reason that you could go online - right now - and not find a single review, article or post about me firing and/or mistreating my team. It just doesn’t happen. Here is a LinkedIn review from one of my content providers:

It’s why I continue to work with or have a biz relationship with top tier industry talent, most of whom I can pick up the phone and call or text. I am famously a no-nonsense kind of guy, but that’s because, coming from a military background, I am exceptionally principled. I am also on the autism spectrum, so I see and react to things differently. It’s not always the way that works for people, but I am no more responsible for their feelings than I am responsible for the price of rice in China. Simply put, I just don’t care. What I do care about are oft overlooked things like common decency, honesty, integrity - and above all else, respect for myself and my fellow human.

And while you’re digging up unflattering articles to cast me in a poor light and impugn my character, you should probably read The Redemption Of Derek Smart by Polygon.

There are many more where that came from - going back DECADES. And I have been featured in every single gaming mag ever written - both in print and online. And not a single one - not one - has ever printed anything about what you’re suggesting in both of your missives above.


It’s in the AIP. And there’s nothing to clarify.

Games - even old ones - get rereleased all the time. Heck, there’s an entire industry around revitalizing old games. I can’t even list them all, but Gamigo, En Masse, Daybreak, Little Orbit etc all are in that very same business. You know how old WoW is? No? How about Everquest? No? Runescape?

There are games much - much - older than Alganon and which are still going strong. The age of a game is immaterial if people are still playing it and the revenue is paying for the game. Millions of gamers are still playing - and paying for - games like WoW, EQ, Runescape, Planetside etc.

And if the game costs $100K per month to operate and it’s bringing in more than that in net revenue, who cares how old it is? Clearly the gamers who are playing and paying for it, don’t care. And they are all that matter.

And to be clear, this isn’t a “Web3 label”. That’s just false. I have clearly stated, over and over again, that “Web3” is just tech, much like graphics, networking etc. The game rerelease has Web3 components (all listed in the AIP btw) in it, in much the same way that it has an updated network stack, updated graphics kernel etc. It’s just a game release - with new stuff.

I could rerelease the game and disable (it’s just a build flag) the blockchain, crypto wallet UI and NFT marketplace, and guess what would be left? A networking stack, a pre-existing in-game wallet and a pre-existing in-game marketplace/cash shop. It’s not rocket science. It’s just tech.


Yes, it’s Windows only. I should probably update the AIP to make this clear, though gamers already know that PC means Windows.

Also, it’s a client build, not mobile or browser.

There are no plans to build for other targets because it’s not as easy as it sounds, though moving to UE5 down the road, basically gives new targets for relatively free if I decide to go that route.


Seriously? What do you know about game licensing?

Do you think that I would give a multi-region, multi-platform, worldwide license to a game like this for $5M? No. It’s why it’s a single platform, single region, low license fee commensurate with that.

It’s why I gave the DAO the option to license it for other territories if it so chooses. And even so, who is going to setup ops in China? Singapore? Japan? MENA, APAC etc? You think it’s just a matter of throwing up servers and copying the game over? There are entire companies that setup licensed games in various regions. Companies that are local to those regions. And even they need a license to do that.

No, there’s really nothing to justify.

This is a $30M (!) Dollar game that’s here and now. There are zero games like this being made now, and certainly not with Web3 components.

And the game isn’t from “13 years ago” as that would imply that no work has been done on it since 2010. That’s just false. In fact, an expansion pack - with a slew of features - was released in 2015.

Coupled with all the engineering work that went into the game these past years. Not to mention that in the past 3 years alone, we integrated things like Xsolla payment system, PlayFab (now owned by Microsoft) and a slew of other third-party tools and tech updates.

This is what a $750K expansion pack does.

At $1M per year, it’s the cheapest MMO game license in history. Don’t take my word for it though, go search, ask around etc.

And from that, as stated in the AIP, I get to pay for everything related to the game. It costs the DAO nothing. Not a single penny more.

If you do the math, and come up with $83K per month, what do you think that pays for, exactly?

Do you think that’s enough to pay for servers, team, maintenance etc? How much do you think I am going to pay the 16 (!) or so people I pledged to hire from this DAO community? Food stamps?

For example. Do you know how much Netease was spending to license and run Blizzard’s games - for 14 (!) years, until it was canceled? Do you think that Blizzard licensed it so that they could end up footing the costs even though that’s the responsibility of Netease, the licensee?

Do you know much it costs to run a team? Let alone an MMO game? Or even any live service game? We don’t just throw it up and forget about it. It’s constant maintenance, patches, updates, engagement etc.

The price is what it is, and it’s not open to negotiation. It’s very straightforward, take it or leave it sort of thing. That’s why you get to vote.

And there’s nothing to negotiate as that would imply that there’s room to cut stuff, or that it was unrealistic or that it was padded etc. It’s a license with a marketing pitch. It’s not a proposal for hosting a jamboree where you can serve donuts instead of sandwiches and cut corners that way.

I didn’t pluck the numbers out of thin air. I deal with numbers and metrics. I have run studios - and entire third-party teams inside very large companies - for decades. This stuff is what I do. I have no incentive to low ball or inflate only so that I can end up being upside down in costs down the road. You know how long 5 years is in gaming speak? This DAO might not even be around in one year, let alone five years down the road. So, if that happens, am I going to suddenly let go all the fine people who I hired from here and who trusted me enough to come work for me?

Yes - I get to keep the MT because that’s what pays for the ongoing improvements and maintenance of the game - including the DAO license version. BECAUSE a $5M / 5 year license is a SMALL amount.

It was either $5M + MT revenue or $10M+ and no revenue from MT; which basically makes the game free to play ApeCoin DAO. And if it’s F2P, how does that benefit the DAO if nobody is buying and spending $APE to play the game?


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Plus, the DAO cannot receive funding. And so, if the price was lower just to get the license, it would still have to pay on-going licensing fees for us to keep maintaining that version of the game. That’s standard practice. Again, that’s usually an expense and responsibility of the licensee. The DAO can’t do any of that. So, I built all that into the price and amortized it across 5 years - while taking on ALL THE RISKS & LIABILITIES.

And I didn’t pick 5 years out of a hat. It’s the standard term for licenses. I should know; I have contracts with various industry entities. Don’t you think I could have put up a proposal for 2 yrs @ $2m? Do you think that in 2 yrs I want to be subjected to this AIP song and dance again just to save the community’s game servers from going dark? And what happens if I do 2 yr @ $2M, and the DOA dies next year? Then what? Do you think I would go through all this for $2M? Do you know how much WORK this is?

I made it clear in my AIP. This is the DAO’s “GO BIG OR GO HOME” moment.

And it’s far less risky than spending $20M to build a publisher, which some of you were all excited about. No offense to Jonah and Mighty Bear Games ofc. I’m very successful at what I do because I’m damn good at what I do. And that comes with value. And value comes at a price. And in this instant AIP, $5M is the price.

This DAO license, like others that we are currently negotiating in various territories and with other tokens, was designed for specifically one thing. To raise additional funds in order to build a speedy GTM (Go To Market) plan. If the AIP fails, I am still going to finish the project - just as I indicated. I mean, I didn’t sit on a multi-million Dollar game - for over 3 years - and which put a massive hole in my bank account - because I don’t like money. I did it because I could and because it was sound investment.

Additional funds means more resources and quicker GTM. e.g. even though I have two content studios to do the art improvements, hiring a third, e.g. Ghost Punch (a studio, though more expensive, owned by my friend of decades) means it gets done much quicker.

Also, there are NO new features coming to the re-release. I did that intentionally because the game is so massive, that not even the guys who have played it since day one have experienced it fully. I know this because we have metrics for that. And aside from the base game, for the re-release, BOTH of the expansion packs - once sold separately - are now embedded (that was a lot of work btw) and are a part of the game.

As the game wasn’t a world-wide release, coupled with the fact that it was released during a very competitive period, it stands a much better chance now whereby MMO games aren’t even being made anymore and simple, casual games like this are even more popular and have less competition. But this isn’t a competition. The game isn’t competing, nor is the DAO. It’s a license that is a marketing and promo spend - for the DAO.

As I said in the AIP, the dev work is immaterial. We have engineers - including myself - on it. The visual improvements are more costly and time-consuming due to the massive scope of the game and the sheer amount of content. For example. We can’t just improve on the low-res terrain tiles, while leaving forests untouched. We can’t just improve on characters, while leaving weapons untouched. We can’t just improve on special fx while leaving environment lighting untouched. We’re basically re-skinning (it’s a lot more than that, but you get the idea) the ENTIRE game content. EVERYTHING.

While the game’s visuals do hold up in the face of most Web3 games, I felt that it wasn’t good enough to just re-release it after buying it. I could have done that, and based on its metrics, be making well over $250K per month - net. I chose not to. I chose to improve on the game - then rerelease it.

It’s like giving your car a new coat of paint, after putting on new tires and doing a full maintenance on the engine. Same old car but with a new lease on life. It really is that simple. Does that make the car any less valuable because it’s 10 years old? If so, why did you do that work in the first place if there was no value to the car?

Here’s how my mind works. I own a few cars. One of them is a 2014 Tesla Model S P85+. They don’t make them anymore, and I have no intentions of upgrading to a new model because I like this OG model. I built that car back when Tesla literally let you pick every single thing about the car. I maxed out on everything. According to Quicken (I just checked the ledger for “tesla-maintenance”), I have thus far put over $68K into it (and that was a $125K car that I paid cash for) for a new battery, tires, sealing, paint work etc. I am one of the admins of the Florida Tesla group on Facebook, and I get offers for it all the time. It’s an old car, but I did it anyway. That’s how my mind works. I don’t want a new Tesla model. I want my old OG model that doesn’t even have 40K miles on it.

So, tell me how the DAO paying $83K per month, over five years, for a game that’s going to boost its image & reach, its user base and $APE adoption, is somehow a bad deal. The DAO could spend $83K per month on marketing for the next five years and literally nobody would care. NOBODY. Don’t take my word for it, go ask Yuga Labs how much marketing and user acquisition costs. I’ll wait. When you’re done, go run up some numbers on UA costs.

I ran these before in another thread, so here it is again:


  • July 16, 2022 - Yuga launches 1st Otherside trip → 81,719
  • Mar 25th, 2023 - Yuga launches 2nd Otherside trip → 114,764
  • June 29, 2023, Yuga launches HV:MTL game → 123,508
  • July 27, 2023, Today’s Snapshot → 129,780

So, between June 29th - July 27th, almost a month later, only 6,272 $APE “wallets” have entered the ecosystem.

And those metrics don’t even tell the whole story because individuals can have several wallets that hold $APE. I personally now have 3 wallets with $APE. Long story.

Add to that the fact that even with 129,780 wallets (at the time), Discourse and Discord combined, don’t even represent 10% of the Ape community proper. In fact, Discourse barely represents 6%.

But somehow you think that the DAO paying $83K per month for a game promo is somehow expensive. Even as the $APE rushes to $0 (it’s $1.78 today btw).

So, if the community thinks that this a bad deal or it has no benefits to the DAO, then they should vote against the AIP. That’s how the DAO works. But that’s not going to prevent the project from being completed. It just means that I can go focus on other partnerships - including token partnerships - for the release and move on. Loss is immaterial in these things. You don’t lose what you didn’t have, and in that regard, the DAO will be left to figure out what it is it actually lost by staring a gift horse in the face - then shooting it.


That’s subjective noise.

And you’re not in a position to determine what is a “complete waste of money” and what isn’t. I presume that you don’t know anything about game development, distribution or publishing - nor how these things work.

I explained in the AIP - clearly - how the server clusters work, their capacity etc. So, lets do this another way in case it’s not very clear in the AIP.

This is an Alganon server cluster.

3 servers = 1 cluster

1 cluster = 1 game server “set”

1 cluster can host 5,000 clients depending on config, and consists of a database, proxy, and game server.

Each cluster “talks” to another cluster that’s like the God of the land of servers. And they all have a failsafe fallover.

So, 36 servers is just 12 clusters hosting (12 x 5000 clients) = 60,000 players. That’s not even half of the ApeCoin token holders.

Right. So, what happens when ALL the token holders show up - as I fully expect that they will - can’t login and play? Better yet, if we don’t gate the servers and restrict it to only ApeCoin DAO - as I intend to do for the ApeCoin DAO servers - what happens when the general public show up and they get to login one day, but an ApeCoin member who paid for this, can’t play? Then what? They’re not going to yell at you, an anon handle on Discourse. They’re going to yell at me. Then it makes the press. Then I get to deal with all that noise.

If we plan for 10K clients and 30K clients show up, what then? Do you think I have time to be messing around with the DAO, writing AIPs and all that time-wasting activity to get funding for additional servers, even as I get attacked and blamed for “bad planning”. Have you done the research - of which there are many articles - about game and MMO launch day mayhem due to lack of servers that lead to login issues?

So, no I am not going to provision less servers, only so I get to scramble to buy servers, ship them to the datacenter, get engineers up there to hook them up - assuming we even have space in the cages - then create the game from images; then copy over game dB with user info etc to sync the players and all that.

Also, though the game supports it, if we used cloud (AWS, Compute, Azure etc) servers, with it’s unpredictable monthly billing, what happens when, instead of paying $25K per month for bare-metal servers hosted at a datacenter, we get a $100K bill in some months due to demand? That means, I end up under water in costs - with no chance of recouping those costs from the DAO. And I can’t pin my hopes on MT revenue because obviously that goes toward the project allocation pool.

This AIP was designed to pay for specific things and for specific reasons. And if it happens that less ApeCoin players show up, that doesn’t change anything. It just means that we have spare servers sitting around empty. That’s not relevant because - as a grant - that money is already spent on specific things. And how I choose to spend it, is MY choice. And I would expect that when you give $5M to someone for a license it’s with the expectation that they bloody well know what they’re doing.

It’s not “cheap” when you have no idea what goes into it. But that’s what happens when people find things to pick apart - without reason.

Listen, I do this for a living. I know what I’m doing.


It’s in the AIP. But here’s some more clarity.

If the DAO decides not to renew the license (it goes to yearly after the first 5 yrs) this is what happens:

  • Add those server IPs to the public server pool
  • Remove the restrictions (e.g. keys, admin access etc) specifically used for ApeCoin DOA
  • Disable all the ApeCoin DAO game keys because they were granted as part of the license
  • Remove the ApeCoin branding from the game because it came with license partnership
  • Retain the use of $APE token - assuming the US govt didn’t kill it by then - for crypto until a new token partnership is done; at which time the $APE token will be removed.

Remember, the grant becomes my money that paid for the license to my game. And that money paid for the servers etc. My delivery was on a term license to provide services to the DAO. So, once the DAO has used up it’s license term - just like your monthly XBox Game Pass - it’s game over.

That’s how licensing works.

Then, if you guys still want to play the game, you just have to pay for it like regular players. None of that will change.

I will NOT wipe game accounts or anything like that. So, if the DAO servers sunset, you can just login and play the game on public servers - using your very same game account because it’s yours. You just have to pay like you once did.

Similarly, this will NOT affect the team hired from ApeCoin because they work for me, not the DAO. So, any of those who are still around at that time, can still remain part of the team and serve the broader Alganon game community. The team isn’t a throw-away asset. I don’t run my companies like that, whereby I get to fire everybody because stuff changes. As long as I can afford to pay them and they perform a function for Alganon, there will always be work for them. Plus, inside of 5 years when we have a UE5 build, we’d probably have two expansions (already in planning) released by then. Which means, there will always be work.


It’s in the AIP.

Look under TIMELINE. It’s actually item #1 - 3 of PHASE 1.

Upon execution and payment of the license, the ApeCoin DAO will have immediate FREE access to the Web2 version of the game (base + both expansion packs) game. There will be NO payment to access the game; and you don’t need to buy $Tribute for MT because we will do daily automatic $Tribute drops into wallets so that people have enough - FREE - game money to play the game. It’s how we do it for dev, testers, media etc. And until the Web3 game is finally released in 2024, NO money (fiat or $APE) will be spent by ApeCoin on playing/testing the game. Not the Web2 nor the Web3 version.

The only delay will be in provisioning the servers etc. because we can’t use pre-existing servers for a licensee. Plus, we don’t have any spare servers anyway, though we do have rack space at the datacenter because buying additional servers was always part of the plan.

I know it’s a long and exceptionally detailed AIP and so it’s easy to miss some things, but I recommend that you go over it again. Who knows, you might end up with 100 more questions that you need answers to.


That’s subjective.

Oh, so, you’re a game developer now, then? I had no idea!

And yes - you’re wrong.

Every single game that I have thus far built, has used a custom game engine. Which I built. And over 90% (and there are surveys for this btw) of games developed - at least for the PC - are using custom game engines.

Using game engines like UE5, Unity3D etc don’t do exactly what you want them to do. You use them, as your base engine, to build your custom game engine. Ergo, every single game ever made, uses a custom game engine.

For example. When I started working on Line Of Defense several years ago while building my Metaverse (before that was even the new buzz word) backend tech, Wide Span Global, which I am going to use to bridge all my Web3 games, I used Trinigy Vision Engine (TVE) for the base because I didn’t want to focus on building - yet another - base game engine. It was the first time that I ever did that. So anyway, Havok bought those guys and renamed the engine to Havok Vision Engine (HVE). Some months later, Microsoft bought Havok, deprecated (no updates, support, licenses etc) the HVE engine, thus killing my $4M (spent to that point) game. So, now, I was stuck with a $4M game that’s PC only - and using a base engine from which I had created a custom game engine. I was left with no choice but to put the project on hold, take it off Steam early access, and rebuild it from scratch using UE4 (which had a production build). Given the differences between HVE and UE4, plus the custom code we built, that ended up being another year and over $1.5m in costs - down the drain. Then, Epic notified us that UE5 was coming and that it would be ready for production “in a few months”. So, we jumped on that because any dev who went from UE3 to UE4 knows that, well, it’s a bad - bad - thing. I didn’t want to get caught up in that. So, after playing around with UE5 beta, I decided to wait. Thus began the long haul from UE4 to UE5. Which meant a complete rewrite of the ENTIRE custom game engine. I took a $5.6m write-down for that entire ordeal. Now, that game is looking a lot like 2025. That’s 15 (!) years since we started it. Other games just get canceled. I’m tenacious like that.

So, you see, why what you’re stating is inaccurate?

Similarly, I am not sure why you think that a game running on these specs somehow won’t run on modern machines.

Upgrading the graphics engine from DX9 to DX11 is not only a performance boost, but it also ensures that it continues to run on present and future machines. Heck, few PC games are built with DX12. Plus, going from DX9 to DX11 is the shortest path to victory and less hair pulling, than going from DX9 to DX12. If you know, you know. I know.

All my games - even those built on MS-DOS - still run on every single modern day PC.

Furthermore, Alganon is a client-server game. The server is a console session that doesn’t do any graphics updates. That’s on the client to render graphics based on the target hardware.

The relaunch of the game in 2024, will be based on the current custom DX11 based game engine. Just as I said in the AIP.

Work on porting the graphics engine to UE5 will continue in parallel and bears no material relevance to the current game nor this license because just like updates, patches, expansions packs etc, once the UE5 port is completed, it will be released as a patch that goes out to all servers (including licensees) running the game. It’s not this special thing that some servers get and others won’t. It’s just a tech upgrade patch.

When you release for us, will the port to a modern engine be guaranteed?

No. That’s beyond the scope of this AIP and the promised deliverables.

I am not going to guarantee a UE5 port when in 6 months it could end up being a wasted venture which forces me to drop it. Then what? You and your buddies are just going to give me grief for making promises that I didn’t keep. Then start writing up odes in my honor, just for sh*ts and giggles. Yeah, no thanks. I don’t need to up my meds.

What the DAO servers WILL get - just like every server running the game - are updates, patches, maintenance etc. So, if there’s a UE5 build, that’s not a new game. That’s just a patch update. So yes, ofc it will be pushed to the DAO servers because, aside from the hassles of maintaining multiple production builds, why would I not push updates to the DAO servers? I am legally required to provide licensees of my games updates to said games. It’s standard practice.


I didn’t come here asking for money to make a game.

I didn’t come here asking for money to publish a game.

My AIP is a partnership building one. And those deals are done every single day of the week in the gaming industry. I could take this proposal to any other team, company, DAO etc. and the baseline intent would remain unchanged. In this case, only the token and licensee entity will change.

And unlike those guys who VC gave money to, only so they can go make crappy cash-grab Web3 games, I didn’t do that. And I also didn’t want to spend the next 5+ years and a few million Dollars making a new game with Web3 components. I already had a game. A very popular game at that.

I even communicated with Yat, Gerry and several others here BEFORE I put up this AIP. And right up to yesterday, it took a lot of convincing (you guys who convinced me to do this, please feel free to confirm this if you so choose) for me to put this together and upload it. And I was 98% certain that it was a very bad idea, that I would get griefed, attacked, vilified etc by those who don’t like me being here.

And FYI, even before I came to this DAO a month ago, I had communicated with several others from this DAO. In fact, I had a call with Ampify several weeks before I made the final decision to join this DAO. And I also had Twitter DM exchanges with Waabam, BoredApeG, CaptainTrippy, Jonah and several others before doing this.

I did my research. And I had a plan BEFORE I came here. It’s why I have spent a whole month integrating into the DAO, engaging, helping, figuring out the politics, scoping out the various alliances, bad actors, engaging in Spaces, Discord VC etc. It’s how my mind works.

To that end, my intent with this AIP is to onboard a pre-existing Web3 community into the game, then onboard the pre-existing Web2 install base - who are no doubt going to give me a LOT of hate for putting Web3 components into this game rerelease.

It’s a lot easier to integrate Web2 gamers with a Web3 community, than it is to on-board Web2 gamers from scratch. I should know; I do this for a living.

I wanted to do this in a manner that proves to the game’s install base - and the general gaming industry - that the noise about Web3 gaming is just that, noise. As in…See? This is a game that you played. It’s got Web3 components in it. Has that changed how you play the game? Has that changed the game’s fun factor for you? Does it look remotely like a Web3 cash grab game? Has the Web3 release somehow made you grow hair in places that it otherwise wouldn’t? Did the blockchain - which you don’t even know is there - give you cancer?

So, when you decide to vote for the AIP, don’t look at it as if you’re giving me something that I otherwise can’t or don’t already have. This is a partnership. It’s either this DAO or someone else. And my guess is that the Sun will literally burn out before this DAO - or any other for that matter - ever sees an opportunity like this ever again. And that I can guarantee.


Thanks @ApeForLife, I put a lot of work into that. But then again, that’s my personality. I do something properly or I don’t do it at all. :wink:

If you are talking about token burning as it pertains to the revenue, no, we can’t do that because I need that revenue for the on-gping activities related to the ApeCoin servers. My reply above explains this a bit more than it does in the AIP.

The game tokenomics is only as it pertains to the game’s economics model. e.g. currenctly $1.00 = 185 $Tribute (in-game currency).

So, when $APE is introduced into the mix, since we’re not going to be using fiat currency, it looks something like 1 $APE ($1.78) = (185 + some number) $Tribute or something like that based on the daily price of the token, which, today is $1.78 (yikes).

And all the MT in-game items are priced in $Tribute. We’re just replacing fiat currency with $APE token (or whichever token we end up using if this AIP fails).

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One of the most detailed and well thought out AIPs I have read recently. Thank you for sharing this with us!

It is clear that you know your stuff and that this game could be one of the most fun Web3 games. I hope the DAO can bring this into the ecosystem, possibly with some milestone based disbursement (for risk mitigation but ensuring that it does not create a bureaucratic system).

Good luck.


Thank you @normie

And yes, though this is a license, it can be structured based on milestones. But that puts all the risks on me. I am going to be around - and if something happens to me, my studios (which my wife and daughter both work for) - won’t close. But this DAO - like any other corp - is only responsible for itself. I have seen corps come and go at the most inopportune moment in time.

And so, if the AIP passes and the DAO wishes to negotiate milestones - which I have no objections to btw - they have to be structured in a manner that mitigates risk for both sides - most especially me.

And they can’t be based on the 4 phases in the AIP because those are based on project tasking, not expenditures. So it’s not like we’re going to divide a $5M license fee into 4 milestones @ $1.25M each. Especially since I would be spending some of those funds hiring additional people from here and elsewhere to speed up the project. So, that doesn’t work in this case. And it’s the trap that most studios - even experienced ones - fall into. You have a milestone with a $50K payment due, then you find that it actually costs $100K. Now you can’t deliver on the milestone - and thus no $50K. There are many permutations to this, but I won’t bore you with the details.

And also, all the funds would have to be allocated and put into escrow (I don’t even know how that would work with crypto funds). And that escrow is responsible for the payouts when the contractually agreed upon milestones are met. So, if the DAO goes bye-bye, I still get the funds. And if something happens to the project, well, no escrow payment either.

Anyway, I believe that such discussions happen during the Admin Review process, which goes toward revising the AIP before it goes to vote.

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I have added a comment (under the AIP) with milestone payments.

Thanks for the suggestion. Keep them coming!

@ApeForLife I had to move a post you previously liked. Sorry about that.

Thanks for your detailed response. Like you said, don’t want to derail this so I’ll leave it at that.


Hey Man, this is an excellent, well thought-out, and well spelled-out Proposal!

I can easily see how the Game could benefit from being integrated into the ApeCoin Ad Marketplace.

The UGC you mentioned, is exactly the example of how users could monetise their skills, and how brands could be present in the game without distorting the gameplay and experience.

This fits perfectly and serves as a rationale for AIP-302.

I’m glad we met! Let’s keep it going!


Not to spam, but I’d appreciate your review and comments on AIP-302 Draft, which fits directly with this Proposal.


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Thanks! I don’t want you to feel as if you shouldn’t ask other questions related to the AIP. So, despite our past (hopefully) differences, it’s safe to say that we’re all here “For The DAO”. In fact, I did encourage you to ask additional questions if they come do come up and are specifically related to this AIP, how it moves the DAO forward etc.

So, if any other questions pertaining to this AIP come up, just ask. As you’ve seen, I don’t shy away from answering questions, and I will always provide answers where needed.

Also, I hope that one day you will find something positive about this AIP. And if not, that’s OK too.


Hiya! Yes - precisely. That’s why I mentioned in the AIP that I would be workiing with creative people here in the community, including promo/marketing AIP teams - whether their AIP passes or not - because that’s how we build as a community.

And as the game already has in-game ad hooks, embedding them IN the game world is trivial. We already have support for quite a few of the popular ones used by Unity, Unreal and others.

And due to the game’s open-world design, we can put stuff anywhere we want. And if the ad revenue monetizes adequately, that and the MT, can go towards the funding of expansion packs which enable UGC and similar features to the game post-launch.

For example, this morning I saw this amazing illustration in the ThankApe update. That illustration immediately resonated with my UGC and promo idea which I outlined in the AIP for future expansions of the game. I imagine that we could - literally - replace ALL of the game’s characters and NPCs with Apes. Everything. After all, we are re-skinning the game with all new models (though it’s the pre-existing ones re-created at a higher quality). Naturally, that would come at additional cost because that sort of re-skinning would be only for the ApeCoin licensed version of the game. I am going to write-up a follow-up to the AIP to explain this further.


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