AIP-466: Proposal To Close Non-Essential Working Groups

It’s been 3 months since my original comment, and much has happened since.

I understand and support the concept of streamlining DAO operations and saving costs.

Possible obvious question: What happens when this passes?

Who will review AIPs that are proposed starting the day after this would pass and communicate with the authors?

Who will facilitate establishing grant agreements with approve authors and disperse the funds?

Who will decide which activities will require RFPs and set the direction for the DAO?

This AIP simply states the “Ape Foundation”, but who is that specifically?

Having clarity on the “what’s next” aspect will help ensure that we don’t unintentionally cripple the DAO by removing infrastructure without have something to replace it.

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Just to clear up one part here, the facilitator group was separated from the working group structure about a month ago.

The GWG Stewards never had any involvement with facilitating the phases of the AIP process.

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Thanks Lost.

So if I’m understanding what is happening based on the comments here and on X:

Dissolve working groups: Minimal to no impact on facilitating, reviewing and putting AIPs up to vote.

Dissolve SC: Will need new mechanism for functions that occur in Admin Review. Potential for AIP disruption without replacement process.

I just hope that throughout those coordinated yet disjointed proposals the DAO understands what the new DAO looks like.

In any organizational change, you don’t break it until you know what the new version looks like. I feel this proposal and ones similar to it only cover the “breaking” part and do not cover the “new version” part.

I would propose that this be voted on at the same time as the the AIP the SC is drafting and that one or both of them outline the new DAO structure so we can all make informed decisions.

These two things are quite separate since the GWG decided to completely separate from any critical DAO operations .

Dissolve WGs: no impact on AIP process.

Dissolve SC: not sure exactly what this proposal would look like yet, but the Administrative Review phase has always been optional, based on how it was originally written in AIP-1. If the DAO adopts new guidelines as part of a governance revamp then this would be fairly easy to address, in terms of moving forward with the lowest amount of risk, but without more context of the proposal - any other comments I have would mostly be opinions.

Continuing the discussion from AIP-1: Proposing the DAO - Process:

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Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

Promise not to grill you too hard on CwC later :rofl:

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I’m already with Coffee :saluting_face::joy:

Always appreciate your participation and insights :gorilla::blue_heart:

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That’s my assumption as well, but when it’s done one piece at a time, assumptions are all we have to go on.

I’ll trust the process, and also trust that those drafting these AIPs are reading this and incorporate feedback as they always have.

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WebSlinger + Special Council + Supa Sekret cabal = Ape Foundation.

This graphic is from 2023 and some of the people have since rotated, but it shows the DAO structure.

Since there is some confusion over people and entities make up the Ape Foundation, that’s why I wrote this proposal AIP-477: Special Council To Clarify The APE Foundation

No. It was not my intention to close the Special Council as there is no clear path to doing so. We have had many discussions about this and the response has always been that we can’t actually fire anyone as that would put the Foundation in breach of contracts. I’m not even joking. It was a whole thing last year.

Further discussions about the SC can be found here Removing/Impeaching Elected Candidates

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Until yesterday, I had no idea that this was actually a thing. I originally didn’t include the GwG because I felt that it would affect the low level ops of the DAO.

About a year ago, before I was banned (lol) during the 0xPolygon fiasco, I had tried to close the SC and give control over to the GwG AIP-359: Special Council Vote of No Confidence

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Why need AIP if we’re serious about disbanding the DAO?
Couldn’t someone initiate the movement first, terminate the contract unilaterally? Since it is for the good of DAO, I guess the Ape Foundation and the community shall not be held accountable it.

The challenge here is due to how the foundation was setup.

  1. The DAO voted in the Special Council positions
  2. The DAO voted in (via RFC) WebSlinger as admins

The above make up the Ape Foundation, though there have been rumors and chatter that there is in fact a group of “shadow” people who are also involved. I have thus far relegated those rumors to nonsense; but I still wrote the previously mentioned AIP-477 proposal to clarify it to the benefit of the DAO.

It gets funnier.

Some months ago - out of nowhere - some dude we’d never even heard of until the proposal went up, created a proposal to “clarify” the role of the Special Council AIP-426: Special Council- Future election requirement and role clarification

As absolutely ludicrous as that sounds, this was the gist of this “clarification”:


  1. Clarify that the Special Council is an “Advisory Board’’ that serves an advisory function with no corporate decision-making power.
  • Rationale: Oftentimes there is quoted confusion in the community about what the Special Council is or is not. In practice, the Special Council is in fact an Advisory Board neither corporate officers nor management executives, and they should not be viewed as such. The Advisory Board should also not be misconstrued as the board of directors of the APE Foundation.

And the Special Council actually sent that right through admin review and all the way to vote. Some of us haven’t even stopped laughing yet. For my part, I’m just astonished - to say the least.

The fact that the Special Council leadership, in concert with WebSlinger admins, actually makes decisions in a fashion befitting a body with “corporate decision-making power” is an absolute fact. But somehow, this specific proposal sought to absolve the SC of that responsibility.

And the fact that the SC also serves at the “behest of the DAO” (that being us), is a fallacy that continues to resonate here when you consider that certain actions [against the SC] simply cannot be taken because the SC will ultimately either refuse to take action or just discard them out of hand. And I’ve said before - we essentially and inadvertently - ended up electing kings.

Heck, we couldn’t even reduce their salaries in AIP-277. Last year, this was a major fiasco. You can read my synopsis on that one as well as my prior opinions.

Which is why I had tried to take radical action last year with my proposal AIP-359: Special Council Vote of No Confidence. They flat-out denied that one, and since it was burdensome and pointless to continue, I opted not to redo it. This was their reason for kicking it back:


This AIP Idea was tagged as “Needs Administrative Review” and sent to the Special Council. Upon careful review, the proposal has been deemed “Return for Reconstruction”. In doing so, the Special Council cited:

"This AIP attempts to force the APE Foundation into multiple courses of action which would create significant risks and would not be consistent with the wellbeing of the APE Foundation and the ApeCoin DAO.

We thank the author for their participation and encourage everyone to continue sharing ideas with the ApeCoin DAO Community.

This Topic will be moved to and remain in the Final AIPs - Returned for Reconstruction category. The author may resubmit their proposal if they wish.


So, as you can see, this directly answers the question of why we [DAO] can’t do anything related to the Special Council, let alone WebSlinger. Hence the reason that I am eagerly awaiting the proposal to dissolve the Special Council, what form that will ultimately take, how it affects WebSlinger etc.

Yes - it’s a mess, but there are ways to fix it. But my guess is that whatever they come up with, is likely to have more holes than a sieve, and so, we could spend several weeks, if not months navigating the discussion. In the end, as is usually the case, if they feel like it, they will just send it to vote as-is anyway. Though, given current sentiments and which seem to have the makings of a sea change in the DAO, I am hopeful that whatever comes from the restructuring is beneficial to the DAO.

The irony of the fact that the treasury is no longer a going concern, having been depleted to critical levels, and with all eggs now in the ApeChain basket, isn’t lost on me. You can read my synopsis here Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q1

Long story short, if ApeChain fails, it will be curtains for the DAO. And so, this restructuring process is basically an attempt to reduce the DAO spend in order to extend the treasury runway.

Each time I write about stuff like this, I get the feeling of Deja Vu because I have been clamoring (and I have all the receipts) about things like this since I first joined the DAO back in June 2023. You could say that I saw all this coming, spoke up, took the heat, the flack, and the derision - but ultimately very few listened or even cared. Here we are.

Hopium. That’s apparently the plan.

Heck, I can’t even get the new devrel guy to tell me when ApeChain mainnet is planned for - though he claims to actually know. So, once again, we’re in a situation whereby we can’t get information from the people we hire because everything is compartmentalized and treated on a need-to-know basis whereby the DAO apparently doesn’t have a need-to-know cause of action.

Note that, in my quest for answers, thus far, none of the people tagged in my RFC (Request For Comment) Implementation Update | AIP-454: The BANANA Bill: Apes Gotta Eat have seen it fit to actually respond. That was almost three weeks ago.

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Yes - but of course. Perhaps if more people went to my RFC thread and made demands there, aside from the fact that it would create a historical record, but it may get the attention of the people in charge. But thus far, much like any other thread that seeks accountability and transparency, it’s been crickets.

While I had high hopes for the working groups, and really appreciate all the effort put in from our active Stewards, I don’t think the working groups have turned out as expected. A small handful of people shouldn’t have to shoulder all the work in these groups and that’s what has ended up happening. That’s extremely inefficient, impractical, and a waste of DAO funds.

I do have a few questions about logistics:

  • If there is no Governance Working Group, who will be facilitating the Special Council elections?

  • If the Facilitators are no longer under the Governance Working Group, who is overseeing them and how are they held accountable?

  • In the absence of the Governance Working Group, what is the process for hiring and removing Facilitators?

  • Without a Governance Working Group to submit budget requests for their compensation, where will the funds come from to ensure the Facilitators are compensated for their work?

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ApeCoin DAO not longer a Token-only grant DAO, can just refer to the management structure of Arbitrum/Optimism.

00151

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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,

Edits have been made to this Topic, by the author, by the author’s request, or with the author’s consent.

You can click the Pencil icon at the top of the post to see these edits.

Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.

Kind Regards,

-@Facilitators

I’m not reading all that.

You are on the verge of finally achieving that elusive AIP author title - don’t give people ways to easily tear the idea apart - the proposal already has several undisputable benefits.

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“I’m cutting jobs! And I’m immediately reducing spending.” :person_facepalming::rofl:

Recovering nominal amounts from AIP grants we’ve already paid is not cost cutting.

LFG - “I’m creating jobs! And immediately increasing spending forever with no optout.” :rofl::man_shrugging:

Moving people and/or activities onto the treasury’s payroll forever is not cutting jobs and nor is it saving money.

Hope I educated you! :wink:

I’ll join a space soon and we can discuss. :handshake:

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I believe it will somehow achieve the “reducing spending”!

If you combine the WGs structure and budget proposal, it could potentially cut a few millions.
*Assume that budget will be 100%, or else the WG is elected but probably won’t be operating.

Beside this, this AIP might just be a quick patch to the current issue, proposed just before the Bojangle and Waabam incidents.

And right now, we need AIP by AIP to reconstruct Ape Foundation. Unwind SC, WGs, consolidate ApeChain, Banana bills, etc into a single organisation.

What if these AIPs won’t get passed (inner circle conflict, whale voting), the issues remain, and DAO continues operating in chaos? That sounds funny, right?