AIP-487: ApeCoin Community Engagement Platform

PROPOSAL NAME

ApeCoin Community Engagement Platform

TEAM DESCRIPTION

@SmartAPE // Derek Smart, DAO member and writer-of-many-words

I am an indie software developer who has been in the games industry as a gamer and game dev for over 40 years. I have designed, developed, and published over a dozen games during my career.

My first game, Battlecruiser 3000AD (aka BC3K), was a ground-breaking game that was ahead of its time. Published by Take Two interactive in 1996, it was one of their portfolio titles when they went public in 1997. So, you could say that I helped the company succeed to where it is today.

Over the decades, I have worked with some of best software developers and publishers around the world, and my works have been featured in various online and print magazines around the world.

I am also a member of the International Game Developers Association and was Florida chapter board member for several years.

You can learn more about me on my professional LinkedIn page.

img_apechain_logo

TEAM SUMMARY

The ACE project is completely separate from the Ape Foundation and Working Groups. The team is a completely separate entity.

The ACE project is going to be run lean and mean - like an indie dev project.

In addition to using third-party teams where as-needed, the core ACE team will comprise of up to up to 30 people, ramping up as-needed. The team will be split into 4 specialty groups.

Except where absolutely necessary, every member of the team will be engaged on a full-time work-for-hire contract - with a 12-month minimum term (renewable as-needed).

After the job postings go online, the application process will be managed through an online form where details and resume info will be collected. Preference will be given to qualified and experienced ApeCoin DAO community members. If you hold 1 $APE, that means you’re in the DAO - and that makes you eligible.

All individual contractors and teams will be subject to a third-party KYC/KYB background check.

In the interest of time, the Project Director will first hire the Project Manager and Project Asst. Manager, as well as engage third-party studios to commence the ground work for both ApeID and ApeCoin Online Worlds online platform.

All four aspects of this ACE project will be tasked in parallel.

TEAM POSITIONS
LEADS MEMBER
Project Director Derek Smart
Project Manager TBD
Project Assistant Manager + BizDev TBD
DEV CORE MEMBER
Team Lead TBD
Team Co-Lead TBD
Team Member x 4 TBD
CONTENT CORE MEMBER
Team Lead TBD
Team Co-Lead TBD
Team Member x 4 TBD
COMMUNITY / SOCIAL MEMBER
Team Lead TBD
Team Co-Lead TBD
Team Member x 4 TBD
PLATFORM TESTING

  • During development and up to Beta launch, only ApeCoin DAO members will be invited to test various aspects of the ACE platform. Each such person, as per AIP-300, will be given a forum badge.
THIRD-PARTY EXTERNAL
TASK
World building TBD
Quest and events scripting TBD
Payments processing TBD
Marketing & PR TBD
Community Management TBD
Corporate, Legal, Accounting TBD

PROPOSAL DESCRIPTION

This proposal is to create a platform consisting of a suite of 4 interconnected projects.

With initial assistance by experienced third-party teams, the ACE project will be led by a community team of up to 30 people who will assist in the creation and management of the projects - all of which will be deployed on ApeChain and use the $APE token.

The project will be managed and led by a Project Director.

NOTE:

This is a bold and very extensive proposal and which has been scaled down for ease of understanding. You can read the original (now deprecated) full draft of this proposal online.

Due to the project scope and details, supplemental info will be added in FAQ format to follow-up comments on Discourse. See below.

Below is a list of the 4 interconnected projects.

1] ACE PLATFORM PORTAL

ACE is a unified community engagement web platform which will be the frontend facing for this project.

The platform page will have the ApeCoin branding, as well as all details about the project, images, videos, login access with support for participating partner identity credentials such as MocaID, OtherPage etc.

2] APEID IDENTITY

This is a unified identity system used to login to the ACE portal, AOW platform, as well as across participating dApps deployed via ACE as well as on ApeChain.

External communities will be invited to implement support for ApeID with rewards for participation.

External partner programs such as MocaID, OtherPage etc. will be invited to participate in the ACE platform integration.

NOTE:

This isn’t a separate proposal because it is tied directly into ACE and AOW. We envision having an ApeID to a be coveted asset whereby, in addition to requiring one in order to participate in rewards, enter AOW etc. there are other benefits for having one. Also, the older the ApeID the better because rewards - tied to AOW tokens - will also be tiered based on age, number of referrals etc. In addition, as ApeCoin is tied to the Yuga Labs IP, there will be larger rewards for hodlers of the associated NFTs at the creation of the ApeID. More to follow.

3] APECOIN ONLINE WORLDS

AOW is a massively multiplayer online world in which users, in control of 3D avatars in the world, are able to participate in various event and engagement driven activities while being rewarded for doing so.

In addition to the initial levels (aka worlds) in AOW, due to the engine’s design, the future scope includes the ability to add new lands - either for sale or free - and upon which pre-built (prefabs) art assets can be sold and placed. This will also include sponsored assets seen in similar online worlds.

This is precisely how MMO game worlds are constructed. And in this regard, the ability to have themed worlds based on IP (e.g. BAYC, MAYC, MOCA etc.) isn’t an afterthought - it is something that can be built using a tried and proven engine suite.

It will be created using a pre-existing all-in-one game engine (see FAQ below) while using a node based pre-existing DePIN tech platform for connectivity, integrity and security - as well as, where possible, interoperability among dApps created via the ACE platform.

NOTE:

We are NOT MAKING A GAME!!. Though AOW will have all the elements of a gaming environment, it is a “gamified” engagement platform similar to the scripting system used for quests, events and similar activities found in MMO games. It is designed to be our own version of Sandbox, Second Life, Entropia Universe etc. but without all the bloat and fluff - and way more advanced by virtue of using an engine designed and created to do all these things.

4] AOW TOKEN

This is a fair launch Engage-To-Earn (E2E) utility token for use on the platform. This will be tied to the the AOW platform and awarded to rewards earned through AOW and the ApeID identity.

TGE will be planned for 6-12 months after the ACE platform goes live.

NOTE:

This is a rewards based token which will be designed by an experienced tokenomics team. It is specifically created for the ApeID & AOW rewards system that it is tied to. That means, no staking. It can later be tied to the $APE token where it fits in without running into regulatory issues.

Below is a list of the third-party middleware which will be used to create these projects.

MIDDLEWARE TECH STACK

The project will utilize pre-existing off-the-shelf UA, marketing, middleware and infra for the creation, maintenance, management and growth of the associated systems and processes. For reference, these include but not limited to the following tried and proven technologies, platforms and teams:

Wide Span Global

A revolutionary interoperable DePIN technology platform which allows connectivity between Web3 dApps and server platforms. This tech was developed for 3000AD games and has been in use. The Web3 version adds blockchain support and related security improvements.

Alganon Game Engine

A robust MMO game engine used in the creation of the Alganon MMORPG game which was previously a commercial release. See AIP-316 for a detailed view of the tech and the game that it was originally developed for.

Sequence

An all-in-one development platform for web3 games. See AIP-418 for their ApeChain suite of tools.

Thirdweb

A full-stack, open-source Web3 development platform.

Beamable

A development platform for online games. In the coming months, they too are planning to deploy a DePIN for Beamable.

Alchemy

A suite of powerful APIs, SDKs, and tools to build and scale web3 apps.

Helika

An all-in-one UA, marketing, social media outreach and analytics platform targeted at gaming.

Edgegap

An automated game servers orchestration & distributed infrastructure

Hathora

A server orchestration platform for multiplayer games

Nakama

An open-source game server infrastructure

Upptic

A growth marketing automation and expertise team for web3 games

Galxe

A platform to build and grow web3 communities organically

Windwalk

A community building, growth and operations team

NOTE:

Other project and team management tools include but are not limited to Slack, GitHub, Trello, Notion, GitBook, Tally, Google Workspace suite, Discord, Telegram.

Projects which are geared towards UA, UX, infra, tools etc. interested in joining the ACE platform will be able to express their interest via an online form which will be created and shared by the ACE team. The goal here is to utilize those projects and teams so that we can all grow together as a community. Where needed, ACE will assist in the funding of the migration to ApeChain for dApps selected to join the ACE platform.

BENEFIT TO APECOIN ECOSYSTEM

COMMUNITY FOCUSED ENGAGEMENT
  • This is an initiative for the community and by the community; and one in which all are welcome to participate and be rewarded for doing so. A large swath of the community have been unable to reap the benefits of being part of a community DAO created for them. This is a bold attempt to change that.

  • Gives the community a unified platform and rewards system designed to grow and engage the ApeCoin community. This is similar to other such initiatives. For example, see Moca’s Realm Network for which Animoca has thus far invested over $31M to create.

UNIFIED APECOIN / APECHAIN ECOSYSTEM IDENTITY
  • Built on ApeChain, the ApeID identity is designed to be used across dApps within the ApeChain ecosystem providing rewards and opportunities for all who join ACE to play on or build for ApeChain, and also for node operators.
COMMUNITY DESTINATION ECOSYSTEM
  • Building the ApeCoin Online Worlds (AOW) platform makes it the destination for engagement in the community and a destination for ApeChain.

  • An interoperable set of games ensures that ACE, and in turn, ApeChain, provide a one-stop platform for engagement. Across the social sphere (Discourse, Discord, X etc.) engagement in the ApeCoin community is at an all-time low, and ApeChain isn’t likely to fix that in the short-term due to the amount of time it takes to deploy and on-board apps. ACE, using pre-existing tools and technologies, is well prepared to deploy within a matter of months - not years.

BY THE COMMUNITY / FOR THE COMMUNITY
  • ACE will hire up to 30 members directly from the ApeCoin community and across various roles split into specific teams. As a community effort, the goal is for the ApeCoin community, via designated team leaders, to continue to build and grow the platform.
MULTIPLE REVENUE STREAMS

According to the AIP-454 $100M Banana Bill :

it is anticipated that ApeCoin DAO will receive ongoing revenue from capturing around 77.5% of the fees generated from user activity on ApeChain”.

The creation of the ACE platform is designed to be a contributing factor to this revenue stream for the DAO. In this regard, revenue is derived from the following:

  • ApeCoin Online Worlds access packages
  • ApeCoin Online Worlds microtransactions
  • ApeCoin Online Worlds land sales
  • ApeCoin Online Node sales
  • Revenue split with ACE participating dApps
  • Revenue generated from partnerships (e.g. billboards, banners etc. in AOW)
REVENUE TO THE DAO

Through a generous revenue share scheme, the DAO is able to recoup its $5M investment sooner rather than later, while also generating profit via a persistent platform and ecosystem.

REVENUE UP TO $5M

  • 50% of net revenue generated from dApps deployed on ACE
  • 50% of net revenue generated from AOW transactions and partnerships
  • 50% of net revenue (if applicable) generated from proceeds of the token
  • 50% of net revenue generated from proceeds of AON nodes

REVENUE ABOVE $5M

  • 20% of net revenue generated from dApps deployed on ACE
  • 20% of net revenue generated from AOW transactions and partnerships
  • 20% of net revenue (if applicable) generated from proceeds of the token
  • 20% of net revenue generated from proceeds of AON nodes

DEFINITIONS

APEID IDENTITY

A points/rewards based identity that provides access to all projects on the ACE platform and across all dApps on ApeChain.

It will also be linked to supported web3 assets such as those within the Yuga owned and associated collections and IP - including Otherdeeds. This will be on a tier based system which will be announced later. Holders of multiple assets will receive referral ApeID codes based on the number of owned assets.

Points are awarded to ApeID holders of the aforementioned assets, as well as through participation (past or present) in ThankApe, Boring Security and other identifiable ApeCoin partners funded through the ApeCoin DAO or the Banana Bill initiative.

ApeID will be used to claim rewards across ApeChain dApps as well as from participating non-digital partnerships e.g. Buying items from participating MBA businesses with your ApeID earns points for both you and the business.

Each claimed and minted ApeID will have a set of referral invite codes which can be distributed to others. Also, claimed referral codes will also yield points for the referring ApeID.

All ApeID holders are automatically eligible for not only the points rewards system, but also the token associated with the ACE platform as well as for operating nodes.

DEPIN TECH

Additional Reading

A Decentralized Physical Infrastructure Networks involves using blockchain technologies and decentralization to physical infrastructure. For examples see nodes deployed by XAI Games, GALA etc.

INTEROPERABLE TECH

Additional Reading

The ability and capacity for different blockchains to exchange data seamlessly. The on-going issue with this is that blockchain lacks a standardized framework for doing this - especially across different blockchains.

While at the top layer interoperability is about moving data seamlessly across blockchains, there is currently no unified format or method for game related data to be interoperable across games on the same or different networks.

See also Derek Smart’s 2021 article on interoperable tech

NET / GROSS REVENUE

Additional Reading

This is the total revenue minus the associated costs (marketing, development, licenses etc)

Traditionally in gaming, publishers and some distributors pay developers and studios based on the net revenue of sales. Those tend to be higher than the split for gross revenue. For example, selling games on Steam yields a 70/30 gross revenue split (30 to Steam) based on a sales revenue tier. Similarly, Epic Games has an 88/12 gross revenue split (12 to Epic) based on a sales revenue tier.

The reason that publishers and distributors usually do a net revenue split which they tend to recoup in large chunks from sales is because having front-loaded the costs of the project, they want to recoup their investment sooner rather than later. And in most cases, devs and studios don’t make any money beyond that investment for the project. And that is specifically why, with the advent of self-publishing, indie games hit a high note and are currently the most successful yield in gaming.

MIDDLEWARE

Additional Reading

This commonly refers to software technologies that act as an intermediaries between applications or services. Usually middleware tech is used to create various underlying processes and other technologies without having to create them yourself. e.g. Unreal Engine is a game engine middleware which can be used to great games and applications without having to develop your own engine to do the same thing.

SOFTWARE RELEASE LIFE CYCLE

MINIMUM VIABLE PRODUCT

Additional reading

This is a version of a product with just enough features to be usable by early customers who can then provide feedback for future product development.

A minimum viable product has just enough core features to effectively deploy the product, and no more. Developers typically deploy the product to a subset of possible customers, such as early adopters who are thought to be more forgiving, more likely to give feedback, and able to grasp a product vision from an early prototype or marketing information. This strategy aims to avoid building products that customers do not want and seeks to maximize information about the customer with the least money spent.

SOFTWARE RELEASE CYCLE

Additional Reading

The software release life cycle is the process of developing, testing, and distributing a software product. It typically consists of several stages, such as pre-alpha, alpha, beta, and release candidate, before the final version, or “gold”, is released to the public.

STEPS TO IMPLEMENT

APE FOUNDATION
  • Within 48 hours of this proposal passing, 25% of the approved funds are to be sent to a designated wallet provided by the Program Director.

  • Within 30 days of this proposal passing or within 7 days of all related paperwork being completed - whichever comes first - the remaining 75% of the approved funds are to be transferred to a designated wallet provided by the Program Director.

  • Create and provide access to the ace.apecoin.com sub-domain for use by the ACE initiative.

  • Create a specific section on Discourse entitled “ACE Platform” which will host public facing assets related to the ACE platform.

  • Grant a license to the ACE management corporate entity for the use of the ApeCoin logo and associated marks.

ACE MANAGEMENT ENTITY

Among other related activities pursuant to this ACE project, upon the passing of this proposal, the ACE management team will commence the following activities:

  • Create a new or designate a pre-existing management entity to house the funding, revenue proceeds, team initiatives & payments etc for the ACE project.
    .
    In the interest of decentralization, the aforementioned entity will have no corporate association with the Ape Foundation nor any of the Working Groups within the DAO.

  • Create an operational activities plan which will be shared with the community. This will be an on-going activity.

  • Create a listing of team member positions and application forms for the initial ACE Team. This will be an on-going activity.

  • Create a portal for ApeCoin community members wishing to join the ACE team as per the aforementioned positions.

  • Commence application review and subsequent hiring of initial ACE team members. This will be an on-going activity.

DISCLOSURES - TASKING

This is a massive project in which, not only are we putting together an internal community team while working with external teams, but also this is a project that has all the risks associated with any type of software project development. Building this project from pre-existing solutions is part of risk mitigation that helps build a road to success.

Due to the nature of game development, unless the project is funded, started and certain processes are in place, there is no easy way to determine the project flow. This, along with associated design papers will be provided at a later date as part of the reporting (see below).

All aspects of this project rely on the deployment of ApeChain.

PROJECT TASKS & GOALS

Listed in no particular order, below is a list of tasks associated with this entire 4-pronged project. Several of those tasks will be done in parallel, while others will have dependencies.

  • Create the ACE platform which includes the web frontend and backend
  • Create the ApeID identity system
  • Create a rewards based system that utilizes ApeID
  • Integrate a live service platform into ACE
  • Integrate a Web3 backend into ACE
  • Integrate an interoperable platform into ACE
  • Create and deploy a utility token tied to the ACE platform
  • Create and deploy AON nodes configured to operate on the ACE platform
  • Create and deploy the AOW multiplayer environment

In addition and in co-operation with external parties:

  • Create and/or license simple competitive online Web3 games to be re-targeted and deployed on ApeChain, while being integrated into and utilizing ApeID, the token and AON
  • Create a robust marketing and rewards plan
  • Create a robust tokenomics paper for the AOW and the token
  • Engage with third-party providers for various activities such as world building, scripting, content creation, smart contract creation/review/auditing, server and backend infra deployment, and various legal, accounting and community management activities.
PROJECT TIMELINES
PROJECT TIMELINE
ACE Platform Portal Q4/24
APEID + Rewards System Q4/24
APECOIN Online Worlds MVP Q4/24 - Q1/25
APECOIN Online Worlds Alpha Q2/25
APECOIN Online Worlds Beta Q3/25
APECOIN Online Worlds Release TBD
AOW Utility Token TBD

THIS PROJECT’S DEV LIFE CYCLES

PHASE PURPOSE TESTING
MVP Prototyping + Proof Of Concept Team + Select Testers (small)
ALPHA Most features implemented Team + Select Testers (large)
BETA Mostly Feature Complete Team + Select Testers (wide)
RELEASE CANDIDATE Almost Complete Team + Select Testers (wider)
RELEASE Fully Complete + Deployment Ready Public

NOTES:

  • As previously mentioned, this is a 4-prong project in which all tasks are done in parallel.
  • Dates above are delta from receiving AIP funding.
  • No work can be started unless and until the funds are received.
  • A final release date is TBD because there are lot of factors that can affect the final launch of project. In fact, it could remain in beta or release candidate for an indefinite period of time.

REPORTING EXPECTATIONS

The ACE team is committed to transparency and accountability. And to that end, the team will provide quarterly activity reports posted in the designated Discourse sections and on the ACE platform site.

These reports will include activities such as financials, team hiring, processes related to the procuring of relevant third-party assets, licenses, development progress etc. while retaining confidentiality where needed and absolutely necessary.

As the core of ACE is the development of work products, other reports related to it will be posted as regularly as possible. For example, during game development, it is normal for developers to release regular updates detailing their progress. The ACE team will adhere to similar activities and protocols. Basically, you get to see how the sausage is made - even if you’re on the outside looking in.

OVERALL COST

Total amount requested from the ApeCoin Ecosystem Fund = 5 (five) million ApeCoin or the equivalent of 5 (five) million USDC - whichever is equal to $5M.

The above conversion is required due to the rapidly declining value of the $APE token whereby we could very well end up with way less than the $5M required for this project.The reality is that there are a variety of costs which simply cannot be paid in cryptocurrency.

Through the revenue share model, the DAO will be able to recoup these funds during the lifetime of the ACE project.

DISCLOSURES - BUDGET / FINANCIALS

The $5M budget will be used specifically for the 4 aspects of this ACE project over an initial two year period. This two year period is the same term for the two tech stack licenses used as the core for the creation of the ApeCoin Online Worlds platform.

Designed as a self-sustaining “for profit” program for the growth and engagement of the ApeCoin community via online activities deployed via the ACE platform, the entire fund will be spent on activities related to ACE operations. These costs, normal for a dev studio, include team (internal and external) payments, middleware licensing fees, content creation and dev costs, costs associated with various Web3 backend tools suite including smart contracts, auditing of same, hardware and cloud infra costs etc.

No - we cannot do this for cheaper. A project of this scope and magnitude would normally cost $50M+ were it not for pre-existing tools and technologies as well as a generous licensing model from 3000AD for both of its technology platforms.

If the entire project cannot be completed within the $5M budget, the project will ultimately fail. And so, the goal is to complete it within this budget and get to revenue generation and PMF sooner rather than later. And to get there, we need at least ApeID + AOW up and running in some form or another. The ultimate goal here, win, lose or draw, is to create an ApeCoin community platform on ApeChain.

BUDGET BREAKDOWN

Numbers below are all approximations.

We are literally building a team (third-party + community) from the ground up. Hiring all third-party teams to do this very same work will cost over 3x more.

DEPT BUDGET
Dev + Platforms + Operations $2.5M
Team Core + External - All $1.5M
Hardware + Infra $350K
Marketing + Promotions $250K
Admin + Legal + Insurance $250K
Hidden Costs Buffer $150K
- -
TOTAL $5M

BREAKDOWN PER PROJECT SEGMENT

PROJECT BUDGET
ACE Platform Portal $500K
APEID + Rewards System $1.5M
APECOIN Online Worlds $3M
AOW Utility Token *
- -
TOTAL $5M

*The token TGE is +12 months post-launch of the AOW project and thus does not have/require a budget allocation here because by that point, the project is expected to have generated enough revenue to fund it.

FAQ-1

WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR THIS MASSIVE PROJECT?

This is an initiative for the community and by the community; and one in which all are welcome to participate and be rewarded for doing so.

I have always said that a large swath of the community have been unable to reap the benefits of being part of a community DAO created for them. This is a bold attempt to change that.

For sometime now I have had this idea of building a community based game for ApeCoin. You can see my threads and comments on Discourse starting from the first time that I appeared here back on June 29th, 2023. This led to AIP-316 which failed to pass at vote back in Sept 2023. But, from the outside, I was still a part of the community.

The ApeCoin community will be more engaged via a virtual online platform than in text based systems. This is precisely why other chains and studios are building games and online environments. We need ours. And we don’t have the luxury of many years and millions of Dollars to do it with.

WHY ISN'T THIS PUT THROUGH THE $100M BANANA BILL?

Several reasons. Below are the primary ones:

  • I envision it as a decentralized initiative for the ApeCoin community and one in which all can participate, while having a voice throughout the process. And that voice can be expressed in many ways, ranging from being on a team, being an external tester of what is being created, to participating in Tally or Snapshot votes (as part of the ACE portal) for specific features and initiatives, creating prefab asset packs for inclusion and sale in AOW etc. My vision is for this to be a collaborative initiative.

  • Many proposals have come through our DAO, and even with the amazing success of ThankApe, our community is still stagnant, lacking cohesion, participation and cooperation befitting an engaged community. As a lifelong gamer and game dev, I know all too well the benefits of an engaged and prosperous community.

  • Similarly, any projects going through the Banana Bill are likely to remain behind closed doors until such time as they are unveiled. And even then, they are likely to engage the community differently because those projects are by external teams and with no relationship to the DAO community at large.

  • While I am well aware that this proposal is likely to fail at vote, it is one that contains some similarities to my 3-project (two games + DePIN) Web3 portfolio currently targeted on a pre-existing chain. My point being, I’m doing this already anyway - but for a different target audience and chain. And in that regard, it is no different from any middleware or platform that is created for specific target and purpose. For example: In AIP-418, Sequence created the ApeBuilder platform, while the recently passed AIP-433 ApeExpress is a suite of tools for building various initiatives on ApeChain.
    .
    And even if this proposal fails to pass, the ideas presented will remain as a roadmap so that perhaps some ideas presented here can be adopted in some fashion down the road by other teams. e.g. the ApeID is one which I believe is worth creating. But then the question becomes, what utility will it have?

  • I had also informed Jordan (Banana Bill) that while I have no plans or intentions of deploying my Web3 portfolio on ApeChain due to timing, risks etc. I would still try to find a way to assist in the efforts to make ApeChain a success - whatever form that takes. And so, the massive scope of this ACE proposal is the culmination of those ideas.
    ,
    To me, it’s not relevant if this proposal is funded directly by the DAO or through the Banana Bill because it’s all money from the same treasury. Except, the decision to fund something like this is in the hands of the community voting gauntlet - currently controlled by whales who are likely to kill it anyway.

IS APECOIN ONLINE WORLDS A GAME?

Not quite.

It is a massively multiplayer online environment that uses the same underlying engine used to create the Alganon MMORPG game seen in AIP-316. That same game engine (AGE) is going to be used to create a virtual environment similar to others such as Second Life, Entropia Universe and similar virtual online environments.

The Alganon Game Engine is a robust MMO game engine which has everything that is needed to create the aforementioned environment. There is no tech left to build. Only content is required.

While the feature set is extensive, the key elements for its use in AOW are in its community engagement features such as :

  • Expansive world which can be extended with ease
  • Persistence (24-7 with 99% uptime)
  • Virtual 3D characters
  • Chat (text + voice)
  • Social management tools
  • Rewards based system for airdrops and various tasks
  • Economics + trading system
  • Robust LUA based scripting system for creating anything from quests and adventures to rewards based encounters
  • Support for guilds and groups
  • Support for NPC companions (other NPC or pets)

The concept for AOW isn’t in its gamification like in an online game (e.g. Alganon, WoW, Everquest etc.). Rather, instead of going on quest grinds or grinding for a particular item to make another thing, the scripting system can be used to create simple and easily achievable rewards based tasks (aka quests). These can be based on any activity such as a going to a location, finding an item, finding an NPC etc. And if needed as AOW evolves, it can be expanded to include PvE and PvP combat engagements.

The goal of AOW is NOT to grind, it is to spark continued engagement in exchange for rewards.

Below is an example engagement flow:

  • Create your ApeID and enter the world. Note: A Web3 wallet is automatically created.
  • Create your character, give it a name etc.
  • Enter the world (Alganon has 3 different starter areas, AOW will have 4) and practice moving around, interacting with NPCs, cash shop. chatting openly or privately etc.

Up to that point, you would have earned rewards (AOW tokens) for doing all that.

  • Respond to a quest message to visit a cash shop to spice up your avatar with cosmetics.
  • Respond to a quest message to go to a location. You go there.
  • Respond to a quest message to go find a specific NPC. You go do that.
  • Respond to a quest message to go find the cash shop to buy something. You go do that.
  • Respond to a quest to go battle a monster. You go do that.
  • Respond to a quest to join in a raid to go battle a monster. You go do that.

Up to that point, you would have earned rewards (AOW tokens) for doing all of the above.

Rewards can come in all forms limited only by the creativity of the writers and the designers who write the scripts.

All that aside from the engine’s trading and economics system which allows trading and exchange of items with the environment (cash shop, NPC) or other people in the environment.

My vision for AOW is NOT to make another MMORPG game.

HOW DOES THE ACE PROGRAM BENEFIT APECHAIN?

Several ways. And it all starts with one bold all-encompassing initiative that shapes a narrative. It doesn’t matter how good or great your chain is, if nobody knows about it - let alone uses it - then you have a dead chain. Especially since adoption is always based on “following the leader”. There are so many chains right now that ApeChain needs projects that stand out and which aren’t “par for the course” or “run of the mill”.

  1. A virtual online environment with engaging content such as games, is the primary way to drive traffic and adoption. All of the top entertainment (think: games) chains all use community engagement projects to drive traffic. Passive dApps, memecoins etc. can only go so far because you still need traction.

  2. ApeCoin Online Worlds (AOW) is designed as a rewards based online platform which in turn will drive traffic to the chain. The core to engagement is a robust environment coupled with a rewards based incentive funnel. Using a pre-built environment such as the engine used for this, provides the opportunity to create a diverse engagement funnel that drives traffic.

  3. ApeCoin Online Node (AON) is designed to power AOW. The nodes expand the infra based on demand (more clients = more servers = more nodes). The ability to sell nodes for third-party deployment not only creates traffic for the chain, but it also serves of a proof-of-concept for similar node based initiatives.

HOW IS APECOIN ONLINE WORLDS DIFFERENT FROM OTHERSIDE?

AOW is neither a replacement for nor competition to Otherside.

  • Otherside is an online environment built with UE5 while using Improble M2 engine for its network backend.

AOW will be built with AGE, a pre-existing engine & tools suite specifically designed for MMO games, and which already contains all the tech related components required.

  • Otherside has promised a world with millions of gamers existing in a single environment which will support “up to 10,000” clients in close proximity.

AGE is not designed to host “hundreds of thousands” of players at once, let alone 10,000 clients within close proximity or on a single server. Instead, it is hosted on a cluster of servers which are capable of handling thousands of players. And with a network of servers as well as the ability to move between them, the system is scalable based on demand. And you do not have to create a new character just to play on a specific server. One account (tied to your ApeID), any server - all connected. And the WSG node based tech expands on this ability.

While the first and only game created with AGE was a fantasy MMORPG, that game engine was built because no capable and inexpensive engine existed at the time. You could remove all the game content and be left with a development platform and suite of tools. This is similar to engines such as UE5 - except you would still need to build such a platform if you were creating a game - let alone an MMO.

AOW is based on that AGE platform for which only content (art, audio) and certain integrated middleware (as per above) need to be integrated and/or replaced.

While there are two ways to create AOW from the AGE suite, the fastest path forward is to replace certain content such as environment, player and NPC models, weapons etc. with themed (e.g. BAYC, MAYC etc) versions. You could refer to this as a re-skin, but it’s much more than that. Once implemented, the end result will be themed assets existing in a pre-existing but updated environment. Imagine a game like World Of Warcraft - but with apes instead of orcs. In short, you would be playing an online game - which you probably never played before - as your chosen avatar (ape instead of fantasy warlord) - alongside your mutant friends.

As an MMO platform with a built-in scripting (LUA) system and all the mechanics for trading, loot drops, rewards, chat (public and private, text or voice), cash/trading shop etc, AOW will be a full-blown virtual environment in which you can do anything - including gaping at the scenery. And you never have to play the quests or go on raids. You can simply explore, trade, mingle and chat with your friends while earning rewards, tokens etc.

That’s the whole premise of my vision for this. Imagine a planned session whereby on a certain date or event (e.g. Halloween), you earn rewards just for logging in or going to a certain location etc. These are all simple activities which don’t involve the time sink required for actually playing and making gains in online games. And the Alganon game, when it was live, regularly did events like that.

The end result is that, at all times, you will have something to do in the AOW environment.

  • Otherside has promised UGC via its ODK.

The AGE suite does not support built-in UGC - nor is it planned because we’re not building or extending an engine. And so, neither will AOW.

Instead, the same tools used to create the Alganon game can be used to create additional lands and also import game world assets. Imagine a land for BAYC, another for MAYC etc. And on pre-existing and new lands, exposing those same tools allows gamers to buy a plot of land, and use pre-existing assets (prefabs) to build their own settlements such as camps, towns, villages etc. - all the same assets we already used in the game engine.

The only limitation to the above is that gamers can’t create these prefab assets from scratch inside AOW because there is currently no mechanism in AGE to support that. That said however, it is always possible to allow asset submissions to the ACE team for their inclusion into the game world - based on merit and importance (e.g. MBA businesses, partnerships etc.). We have plugins for this. So, while we’re likely to put an MBA themed building, sign or banner in AOW, tie it to an account thus allowing for it to be used as a prefab, we’re not likely to allow you to create a giant phallus and expect the team to import it into the game.

In short, in game, you could buy (or create them externally and pay a fee to import them into AOW) all the assets required to build your own village, buy an alias of the pre-existing cash shop, and then trade goods via that shop in the same manner as you would with other gamers or NPC. And you can gate access to your village as you see fit.

  • Otherside is pitched to be a Metaverse where gamers can create experiences via the ODK
    .
    Yuga, in a Feb blog post, made clear that Otherside is not and will not be an MMO game.
    .
    I think it’s important to take a beat and also clarify what we are not doing for now on Otherside. We are not making a competitive MMO that takes many years, many tens of millions of dollars, and has enormous risks. There are AAA game companies that have their thousands of employees working on these and other projects, and that red ocean isn’t one we want to swim in.

AOW, will be created from an MMO game engine, and as such has all the attributes and features that come with that. Like any online game world, it is a virtual environment for social gathering and events, complete with text and audio chat. And there are currently very few Web3 communities such as Axie and Sandbox, that have this sort of community engagement. And we in ApeCoin need ours.

FAQ-2

DOES THIS MEAN THAT WE WILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE ALGANON MMORPG?

No. Alganon is a completely separate GAME project that is part of my Web3 studio’s on-going 3-project portfolio for re-deployment on another chain. That Web3 portfolio includes Alganon (fantasy RPG) + Line Of Defense (sci-fi FPS) + WSG (DePIN) - and all three are already part of a “cohesive suite”.

Last year, AIP-316 was to be an ApeCoin project with an initial $2M ask. After much push back and because the DAO has traditionally not favored the funding of games, I had reduced it to a $500K branding/marketing initiative. That ultimately failed at vote. And so, I moved on. I swore never to re-submit it. And so, I never did. Even with ApeChain. I tend to be very resolute in my decision making process.

My vision for ACE using pre-existing tech to build and power AOW, is no different from other tech related initiatives such a Sequence, ApeExpress and others which can be used to build and power various projects.

HOW DOES THE THEMED AOW ENVIRONMENT WORK?

A theme refers to concept and style.

In that regard, as AOW is built primarily for Apes, the vision is for it to be themed as such. In this case, given that all 10K Apes have a license to use their apes as they see fit, the 3D models will have to be imported into AOW using its pre-existing plugin system. And so, this applies to BAYC and MAYC. And to an extend, BAKC entities can be created as “pets” within AOW seeing as the engine already supports the concept.

However, it’s not as simple as it sounds.

For one thing, creating an environment for only 10K people/apes, most of whom don’t even come to the community, let alone played Dookey Dash, isn’t a path to success. And so, we have to determine how AOW is going to support other Yuga IP, MocaVerse characters etc. And with that will come licensing challenges because despite the fact that the ACE project will be owned and operated by the ApeCoin community, there are still third-party licenses required for the use of external IP. It’s precisely how Roblox and Fortnite work to do licensing deals for featuring third-party IP in their online worlds. And if you have seen the Sandbox metaverse world map, then you have an idea of what I am talking about and how we can build out AOW.

Due to the design of the engine used to create AOW, separate lands can be created for specific IP. This means that there could be lands for different IP. And they can be open access or gated (ApeID class, AOW token, $APE etc.).

The Alganon game is a fantasy MMORPG. And so, the entire world is themed as such. Whereas Second Life and Entropia Universe are themed to specific targets, while Sandbox, Roblox, Fortnite and their ilk have a unique base theme layer to build from. Similarly, each AOW land mass can be themed in a generic fashion or specific to a theme or IP.

My vision for AOW is for it to be a generic ape themed environment with [generic] apes as base layer character assets, and with 4 generic themed starter areas where all different types of characters (IP based or not) can then co-exist, while also having lands specific to an IP.

Imagine the books and films based on Planet Of The Apes. You’ve seen them in modern environments as well as in jungle settings. That’s my vision for our base layer theme for AOW. And mingled in with that, IP licenses permitting, we would have Yuga, Animoca and similar IP assets all themed according to their designs. I have to admit, it’s going to be great fun to see BAYC apes running around with those Meebits and Mocas.

This is my all-encompassing vision for AOW. And we all get to build it - together.

WHAT HAS A DEPIN INFRA GOT TO DO WITH ALL THIS?

When you think of online worlds, you think of servers and instances. In most cases, servers can either be your hardware (colo at a datacenter or rented via an online portal) or cloud based.

The AGE supports both types.

However, in the interest of performance and initial costs (cloud computing costs are nuts - and highly unpredictable), we will start off with colo servers because the costs are predictable and largely fixed. The downside is that, say you start off with a 50 servers, but then demand requires additional 20 servers. There is down-time in provisioning those additional servers, as opposed to cloud computing which can auto-scale up/down based on demand. And while you’re getting those servers online, no additional clients are able to enter the world.

The DePIN tech, aside from security and other features, is used for two specific things:

  • Server-to-Server cross-connect: This allows you to move from one server cluster to another - seamlessly and without having to logout on one server, have characters on different servers etc.

  • Server interoperability: This allows you to move your ApeID powered character and all it’s assets (funds, items, cosmetics etc) from one server world to the next - even if they are different games. Yes - it’s nuts. You could literally take your wizard from a fantasy game and enter an FPS game were people are running around with rifles. And based on specific rules, you can either map the wizard + sword to a marine + rifle or transfer them “in place” with the end result being bearded wizard running around in a world with machine gun fire whizzing about.

The combo of AGE + WSG is what makes the AOW a compelling and seamless environment.

More clients (players) means more servers. More servers means more nodes.

NOTE: Even as I type this, the queue to enter Pirate Nation, currently one of the most popular Web3 games, is 93 mins wait. That’s what happens when you can’t scale on-demand without emptying your bank account.


FYI: While the ACE platform will obviously run its own nodes, the concept of making nodes available for sale to third-party operators removes those costs and responsibilities, while rewarding node operators for running them. And node sales has evolved to become one of the quickest ways to raise funds - without relying on a token.

WHAT IS APEID AND HOW IS IT USED?

I envision the ApeID being an online identity used across various dApps and platforms. Having it tied to a rewards system means that third-parties can incorporate support for it while earning rewards (AOW tokens). This can work in both online and IRL commercial entities.

As ApeChain grows, so too will the ApeID. And with adoption comes growth.

It will also be linked to supported Web3 assets such as those within the Yuga owned and associated collections and IP - including Otherdeeds.

This will be on a tier-based system which will be announced later. e.g. ApeID could come in Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze tiers - each with different reward tiers. e.g. A Platinum ApeID could be tiered to BAYC NFT holders.

Rewards (tokens) are awarded to ApeID holders of the aforementioned assets, as well as through participation (past or present) in ThankApe, Boring Security and other identifiable ApeCoin partners funded through the ApeCoin DAO or the Banana Bill initiative.

ApeID will be used to claim rewards across ApeChain dApps as well as from participating non-digital partnerships e.g. Buying items from participating MBA businesses with your ApeID earns points for both you and the business.

Each claimed and minted ApeID will have a set of referral invite codes which can be distributed to others. Also, claimed referral codes will also yield points for the referring ApeID.

All ApeID holders are automatically eligible for not only the points rewards system, but also the token associated with the ACE platform as well as for operating nodes.


ApeID isn’t a separate proposal because it is useless on its own and without utility. Having written over a dozen proposals these past two weeks, if I found any plausible reason to make it a separate proposal, I would have done so.

Spending close to $1M to build ApeID doesn’t end with its creation because it will also have on-going operational and marketing costs. And even then, by the time it’s completed and there’s nothing to use it for, it will lose engagement momentum. Developing it alongside and a part of AOW is a better engagement funnel because right off the bat, we can use it to reward people for getting one, signing up for AOW etc. For example, see AIP-434 which recently raised $1.1M for OtherPage growth. And that was based on a pre-existing proof-of-concept which they were already running quite well.

Something needs a reason to exist. And without that reason, it’s just wasted funds and resources. Just because you can, doesn’t necessarily mean that you should. Even if it’s someone else’s money.

WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER TOKEN INSTEAD OF $APE?

We are building an engagement platform that is tied to rewards created to incentivize said engagement.

Using $APE, aside from the fact that we’d then require a liquidity pool of $APE set aside to fund such rewards, defeats the purpose. Also, it not only creates various regulatory problems, but will also completely wreck the economics in AOW which has to ultimately be tied to a new tokenomics model that complements its economics model.

The AOW token (name TBD) isn’t for governance because we’re not getting involved in that particular minefield. And we’re not going to use it as a [primary] funnel for funding.

The token is specifically for utility that is tied to the AOW platform. It’s final tokenomics model will be designed by third-party experts who are better experienced to do it in a manner that sustains the AOW platform.

NOTE: If you wonder why Pirate Nation is currently making over $70K per day, go take a look at the game and their tokenomics model. There’s your answer. Oh, and there’s this too.

1 Like

FAQ-3

MIDDLEWARE TECH STACK

This section has been moved into the proposal.

I have now completed the proposal based on the online draft. In this version, I have incorporated various feedback and suggestions, while leaving out data from the online version (I will delete that at some point) which were otherwise deemed to be irrelevant and inconsequential to the core of the proposal.

I started working on this proposal some weeks ago as part of my swath of proposals to improve our DAO. It represents my best efforts at doing something bold and truly remarkable for the community and indeed for the success of ApeChain.

Though, due to the amount, I fully expect it to fail at vote, I felt that it was worth doing anyway. And so, regardless of how it turns out in the end, I hope that the time and effort that I spent on it ends up being useful to someone, somewhere within our community.

But let me be clear once again; despite all the noise and hopium surrounding it, ApeChain currently has nothing going for it - and likely won’t for quite some time. By building this platform, we can at least have a shot at a work product inside of six months, while building it out fully over a span of 8-12 months - from start to finish. Then we can extend it. Once deployed, it can grow from there. Worse case scenario, we build it - nobody comes - but it will still remain an online virtual environment that we built and which we can all be a part of of. Remember, ApeCoin Online Worlds is not designed to be a game. First and foremost, it is a virtual environment for community engagement. The DAO has spent more money than this on various projects which have yet to yield any tangible results for the community at large.

There is no magic bullet to ApeChain success. And so, the best that we can do is bring a lot of guns - big guns even. My proposal is one of those.

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I think a persistent identity system across ApeChain is going to be a really big deal when you think through how dapps are interoperable, or how users can be rewarded in a systematic way across ApeChain. I think the persistent rewards system on Blast has been a massive success, so there’s a ton of opportunity here to build off of those ideas to make something very unique for ApeChain.

Also love the idea of hiring from the community, and having a proper MMO to back things now that Otherside will be something quite a bit different from what we thought its original scope would be. Interested to see where this goes. ApeChain NEEDS big bets that succeed for ApeChain to succeed.

5 Likes

Your note on the top of the full proposal was humorous. Aside from some technical language that was outside my understanding (LUA, UGC, ODK, etc.) it seems that ACE will be a platform on ApeChain that will create AOW, a multiplayer online world, which will hire up to 30 members from the ApeCoin community, and which will also create ApeID and launch a utility token called SCOPE. Although you explained the difference between AOW and Otherside, are they still both virtual metaverse locations where avatars can interact? Am I correct that part of the difference is that AOW will allow DAO members to earn SCOPE through basic interactions in the AOW world, where Otherside is more of a metaverse gaming location, kind of like Sandbox?

This is an admirable sentiment.

3 Likes

The token doesn’t yet have a name. If you’re seeing the word SCOPE, it could be an errant copy and paste in the online doc.

LUA is a scripting language used by many games for various purposes
UGC = User Generated Content e.g. see Roblox, Fortnite, Sandbox etc
ODK = Otherside Development Kit by Yuga Labs

AOW is not a “metaverse” environment. It’s an online virtual world powered by a game engine.

For an idea of what Otherside is, please check out Yuga’s website.

And yes, they both feature player avatars which can interact with each other and with the world around them.

AOW built from a game engine platform is more than a place for “basic interactions”. Aside from activities such as exploration, quests, combat etc. you also have a full-blown trading & economics ecosystem.

I can’t speak to what Otherside is or will be because the focus and scope have changed over time. But in terms of a virtual environment, assuming that it does release with UGC, Otherside has more in comparison to Sandbox than it does with AOW.

AOW does not have UGC - and never will. At least not in the general sense, because the underlying engine does not have support for it. And adding such support isn’t trivial.

1 Like

Hi all, new contributor here after being a lurker and voter for years. I’ve been a Mutant holder when they were expensive (17.8Eth) and bought more as the floor dropped (I’m not selling). Tech entrepreneur, 4 exits, last company acquired by Animoca Brands, more about me on my website.

@SmartAPE this is a phenomenal proposal, thanks for your time thinking about it and putting it together.

I’m generally worried about large endeavors with budgets agreed to upfront, would there be a way to split into milestones and get the funding when milestones are reached and agreed to by the DAO or its council?

Have you considered other tech stacks. Reading your proposal, I thought it’d be a perfect fit for The Mirror. It’s a fully opensource UEFN (UE/Fortnite) alternative built on Godot. Full disclosure, I’m an advisor to the company - I believe the tech is solid and will achieve these goals with little additional work.
We would ask them to price an integration of wallet + Apecoin to the platform for microtransactions.

From my perspective, the biggest unknown is who’s going to play the game.
If we want the Apecoin holders to engage in the ACE, the biggest challenge is to bake incentives. Typically $APE rewards for helping kickstart network effects within the ecosystem. From building games or items to creating events and more generally a digital economy a little like Second Life, but powered by $APE. This should in my opinion be the meat of this budget.

I would consider ApeId as a different proposal, I don’t believe it to be core to this AIP - I’d love an ApeId obviously.

Essentially, I’m suggesting to lower the tech risk / cost and set up ACE as a playground powered by $APE.

2 Likes

Thanks! A lot of work went into it over several weeks; and I still had to make lots of revisions due to feedback from several people that I shared the online draft with.

That’s a valid concern, and one that I keep hearing off and on. Let me explain why I am hesitant to do it that way.

1- The project would be reliant on a third-party to continue funding it.

In the 40+ years that I have been doing it, regardless of the team or project, it tends not to end well. Projects tend to fail, get canceled etc. for various reasons - most of them relate to funding.

As I have mentioned to others who also brought up this point, trust issues aside, I’m not in the least bit inclined to keep coming to the Ape Foundation for funding tranches - even if the payments were contractually mandated and not subject to additional voting ala ThankApe. I simply won’t do that because it’s far too risky for the project and the team. Plus, I’ve heard far too many stories about this salient point with other proposal authors who have had to run that gauntlet.

If I were ever going to entertain such a plan, it would have to be via an escrow setup whereby the full funding is deployed to an escrow team, and they are required to disburse the funds based on specific milestone deliverables. We do this in game dev as well when there are trust and/or similar issues that prevent parties from agreeing on terms.

2- The structure of the project and the fact that it has multiple pieces all of which have to be done in parallel, means that I have to carefully structure the payments to specific milestones. And that’s a challenged in an of itself. Let me give you an example which, as an entrepreneur yourself, you are sure to understand.

So, it’s a $5M, 12-14 month project that we want to split it into milestones. First, we have to take a top-down look at the span of the project. Below is a copy/paste of the scope.

SCOPE
  1. Create ApeCoin Community Engagement (ACE), a unified community engagement platform.
    .
    It will be an ApeCoin DAO community project managed and led by a Project Director, and consisting of several people, including a Project Manager, recruited from within the DAO community based on their skillset, experience and availability.

  2. The ACE team will create a multiplayer online world, ApeCoin Online Worlds (AOW), using a pre-existing licensed engine designed specifically for this type of environment.
    .
    The AOW platform will also use a licensed pre-existing DePIN tech platform which uses a node-based approach responsible for the integrity, security and interoperable nature of the AOW platform.

  3. The ACE team will create a unified identity system, ApeID, for use on AOW as well as across all dApps deployed on the platform and on ApeChain.
    .
    External communities will be invited to implement support for ApeID with rewards for participation.
    .
    External partner programs such as Animoca via their MocaID initiative, will be invited to participate in the ACE platform integration.
    ,

  4. The ACE team will also deploy a fair launch Engage-To-Earn (E2E), utility token for use on the platform as rewards for engaging in various activities.

NOTE: There are 4 parts to the project - and they all have some level of dependency. Which is specifically why everything has to be done in parallel - like you would any software project.

So, lets break those down into components. Without going into too much detail, I will use other projects as a reference so that it’s easier for people to understand.

ACE PLATFORM

This is a web destination that hosts everything about the project. This includes a web frontend/backend, data/docs, art, videos etc - everything about the entire project, including the teams, scope etc.

Ref from online world platforms:

Sandbox, Entropia Universe, Second Life

Ref from recently passed AIP:

AIP-434: Other Page: A Player Network & Rewards Hub for ApeChain —> https://other.page/
AIP-433: Ape Express - Next Gen degen tools for building instantly on ApeChain —> N/A
AIP-209: Ape Accelerator powered by ApeCoin —> https://forj.network/

APEID

This is full-blown identity system which also has to be supported by the ACE platform. Far too many references to cite, so lets pick one closer to us: MocaID

APECOIN ONLINE WORLDS

Though this will use an off-the-shelf game engine stack, most of the work is in the content creation because at the start it won’t have any content. No 2D, no 3D, no audio, no scripts - nothing. It’s basically a blank canvas not unlike the game editors in Unity or UE5 - except, unlike those which need to be extended via plugins to do various things, this engine already has everything built in.

What that means is that an entire level has to be created along with all its assets. This requires design and planning. Then a list of all the assets which will be used has to be made - and then they have to be created.

I invite you to read this tech thread from my [failed] AIP-316 to have an idea of what is involved here.

All of the above has to be done in parallel. Even with the use of third-party teams to start with, all involved have to be paid - regularly.

And the reason for all this work is because we’re not re-skinning an entire game. Imagine you take any game, then remove all the content leaving only the empty map level. That’s our start point.

If we were actually using the Alganon game from my AIP-316, and just re-skinning it like I originally planned last year, that’s a $2M expense all by itself. But that ship has long since sailed due to other commitments that I have made for that project - and which would be too costly and risky to exit at this point. In fact, it would basically cost me over $1M to do that.

TOKEN + EVERYTHING ELSE

Everything else is standard fare. Doing tokenomics, launching a token, building a rewards system etc. isn’t rocket science. You just need people who know what they’re doing.

If I were to break all that down into milestones and deliverables payments, not only would each [milestone] chunk need to be a minimum of around $1.5M, but the milestones themselves would end up being contentious, leading to a payment not being approved.

Which brings us to this: How much can we get done for $1.5M and in what time frame? And to answer that honestly and without the usual dev speak nonsense, I would say, we’d likely have the ACE web platform and ApeID done, maybe some parts of a level - and not much else. Why? Because there is no way we’re going to be able to take a 4-prong parallel approach and get anything tangible done with $1.5M - and in short amount of time. And what’s the remedy? We would have to extend the time to market. And time is one commodity that we don’t have.

So, for there to be any meaningful progress in which we can have ACE + AOW + APEID up and running inside of 6-9 months, with a 12-14 month span for full rollout, we either need all the money up front or at least 50% of it. And in the case of the latter, we then have to deal with the associated challenges and risks that come with doing it that way.

Can it be done? Under normal circumstances and with ample time - of course. Split the project into 4 x 6-month chunks, each with a $1.25M milestone and hope that each milestone deliverable gets done as per the contract and according to the timeline. Anything short of that, and the project is dead. No question about it.

No, I have not considered other tech stacks - and I don’t intend to. In my experience, it always looks great on paper - until it doesn’t. I am familiar with my tech stack and my ability to use it. If I were going to be looking at other tech stacks, it certainly wouldn’t be this when we can just as easily go use UE5 + plugins to achieve even better results than anything built on/with Godot.

Plus, the last time that I looked at that particular engine, it wasn’t even 1/10th of what’s in the AGE tech stack. And it’s not production ready.

To be clear, I am not discouraging anyone from writing a proposal that mirrors mine and which uses some other tech. As I mentioned above, I am fully aware that this proposal is likely to fail at vote. And if/when it does, since this is a public proposal, anyone is welcome to put up a proposal to go build everything in my proposal if they so choose - and with whatever engine they like. Competition is always great.

That’s the unknown with any project. This is no different.

That’s what rewards are for. And they’re documented in my proposal.

There’s nothing typical about that - as evidenced by the rapidly declining token value.

ACE platform rewards will be tied to the platform token. And $APE is just the cryptocurrency of choice for revenue funnel within the platform and AOW.

While some may think that a game token adds friction when we can just as well use $APE, I invite those people to go back and study the history of MMO games and their economics. Or better yet, any of the leading Web3 games out right now.

That’s the entire point and scope of this project.

It will be powered by $APE - but I don’t envision it as being the rewards funnel. That aspect can obviously be revisited when the tokenomics + economics of the platform are being designed and discussed.

I believe that I already addressed this over here. I have copy and pasted it below in case it got lost in the volume of data that comprises this proposal.

WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER TOKEN INSTEAD OF $APE?

We are building an engagement platform that is tied to rewards created to incentivize said engagement.

Using $APE, aside from the fact that we’d then require a liquidity pool of $APE set aside to fund such rewards, defeats the purpose. Also, it not only creates various regulatory problems, but will also completely wreck the economics in AOW which has to ultimately be tied to a new tokenomics model that complements its economics model.

The AOW token (name TBD) isn’t for governance because we’re not getting involved in that particular minefield. And we’re not going to use it as a [primary] funnel for funding.

The token is specifically for utility that is tied to the AOW platform. It’s final tokenomics model will be designed by third-party experts who are better experienced to do it in a manner that sustains the AOW platform.

NOTE: If you wonder why Pirate Nation is currently making over $70K per day, go take a look at the game and their tokenomics model. There’s your answer. Oh, and there’s this too.

ApeID is the core of the vision that I had for this project. If it wasn’t, I would have made it a separate proposal. Saying that it shouldn’t be part of this proposal is like saying that the user account system in AOW should be a separate AIP.

Yup, I gathered that. :slight_smile:

  • The cost is $5M; that’s relatively cheap considering that there are no costs for the use of my tech stack over a period of 2 years
  • The tech risk/cost is a part of every project, and this one is no different. Trying to make it cost less doesn’t reduce the risk. And it certainly is no guarantee of success or PMF
  • ACE is the platform. AOW is the playground - and it will be powered by $APE / ApeChain

I am always open to suggestions and willing to consider any/all contingencies.

2 Likes

The ACE Platform sounds like a great way to boost community interaction with tools like polls, forums, and live chats. Integrating it with current ApeCoin initiatives for easy governance participation is a smart move. This could really bring the community closer and make it easier for everyone to stay involved. I also liked the rev share component of this.

That said, I’m a bit worried about the scope. It has several parts to it that each will require intense focus on the GTM (Ape ID, AOW, Community Engagement platform, utility token reward system, etc). Some of these have potential overlaps with other projects we have as well.

Are we sure we need a new platform, or could we enhance some of the ones already in place with all of these good ideas? In addition, would it make sense to work on this as multiple separate projects instead to lower execution risk? It would be good to see a detailed analysis of how these ideas could potentially be integrated into existing community projects we already have versus what definitely needs a new platform.

Also, can we get some benchmarking on the expenses? Knowing the cost breakdown would help in understanding the financial feasibility of this project. While I trust Derek’s experience in the cost being 3x more if it was outsourced to 3rd party devs, it would be good to have more comps analysis on this for a relatively large allocation.

Lastly, I’m looking forward to more community feedback on this! Continuous input from everyone is key to making sure this platform meets our needs and evolves effectively.

4 Likes

Various discussions have caused me to completely revise the PROPOSAL DESCRIPTION section for clarity.

Thanks to all of you who have continued to send me suggestions, concerns etc. whether publicly voiced or not. As you can see from my edits and responses which are directly connected to your aforementioned suggestions and concerns, I am taking all of them into consideration. While I don’t profess to have all the answers, I do know a thing or two about what I am doing; and so, my ultimate goal is for this project - if it passes - to succeed for ALL of us.

1 Like

This tells me that you read the whole proposal - and the voluminous FAQs. Well done, man! :slight_smile:

And yes - you are spot on. Everything you say is specifically why I came up with this idea and spent so much time (over two weeks) working through this. Even so, I was still hesitant to put it up. Which is why I solicited external thoughts for several days before migrating it to this proposal. Knowing that it has high odds of failing at vote, I still wanted it to be a roadmap gift to the community for anyone else who comes after me to go build it - if not me. At the very least, if it fails, I - once again - can go on the record and say “Well, I tried”. That happened last year with AIP-316. If that had passed, we would be having a different discussion right now because the Web3 version of Alganon would be on its way to being migrated to ApeChain as a “first on chain” game. But alas, that ship already sailed - and it’s not turning around.

The best way to build community spark is to make everyone a part of something. It’s precisely how so many communities that have that spark keep growing. I mean, look at our Mocas cousins for example. That community is on fire! And now with MocaID and all the initiatives they have planned, they can only grow even bigger because everything they do is with the simple goal of engaging the community. We here in ApeCoin, amid all the noise and hopium, are lacking this formula and that’s because we don’t - yet - have a common initiative of our own.

My use of my tech stack is NOT to build a game because we do NOT have time nor funding for that. It’s to build a unified online platform whereby we could be having this exchange in AOW via text or audio. It’s just a completely different type of engagement.

And using an engine that already has ALL that’s needed to create engagement by way of quests, competitions, polls, air drops etc. gives us a head start because we do NOT have to build an engine for ANY of that. It’s all there already. All of it. While I hesitate to keep pointing to AIP-316 because I don’t want to create confusion, that entire game is built on this engine and when the game was live, these are ALL of the same activities that we did to grow it to over 350K unique accounts. While doesn’t sound like lot (it’s not because it was a niche indie MMORPG), it’s still more than all Yuga IP content - combined. That’s not nothing.

As I type this, Moca have had over 1.5M MocaID sign-ups, and they’re saying that they have over 700K that are “active”. If we build this platform and tie it to ApeID, there is nothing - but our imagination - preventing us from growing our own in similar fashion because with AOW we will have a lot more than most do. We won’t have the complexity (+mistakes + distractions) of Sandbox, the emptiness (over time) of Second Life, and certainly not the elitist nature of Entropia Universe. Why? Because we’re not building a tiered system. We’re building a community engagement platform where all are welcome to grow. And an E2E rewards system ensures growth of not only the community but also everything echoed across ApeChain.

And if we do this right, we can generate revenue to spark growth instead of going back to the DAO for more money for that.

Right now, all the gamecentric chains - all of them - have either a killer dApp or virtual world that builds and grows their engagement. ApeChain is way behind - but we can fix that in less time than others have been able to. If we don’t do a major community based project like this, and instead the community goes for the quick and cheap, we’d end up with the likes of Nifty Island as opposed to the engagement levels of Pirate Nation et al.

Building something like AOW alone could take decades. With the funding for a parallel approach like this proposal, we can have ACE + APEID up and running inside of 3-4 months, and WIP versions of all 4 planned worlds in AOW inside of 90 (!) days - all ready for testing.

Content creation is only as costly as the number of resources that you throw at it. You could throw 2 guys at a level and pray that they complete it in one month. But throwing 4 experienced guys - all focused on different/specific things - ensures that they actually get it done on time. Sure, it costs more - but that’s how that works. And having worked with teams all over the world, I know who to hire, who to task - and what stuff costs. Nobody is going to send Derek Smart a $150K quote for a task when they all know that I am experienced enough to know that it would only cost $50K. That becomes a very short conversation because people know that I don’t like them wasting my time.

As I type this - it takes me less than 15 mins to create a box in Maya, export it, and load it in the AGE editor. Then walk around with a pre-existing avatar - while interacting with an NPC that I put in the box. Sure, it will be empty - but it’s all there. It’s not different from Unity, UE5 etc. except that there’s nothing to build but backend plumbing and content.

And since I make a decent living already, I don’t need to front-load the money from this. That’s why my plan is to manage the project for FREE while getting a cut based on the performance of the platform as per the revenue (which is how 50% then 20% goes back to the DAO) split.

And as mentioned, I also provide the tech stack also for FREE - for two years because I have no concerns about making money from my work because I always have.

I have managed and funded all my projects because I believe in my work and continue to reap the rewards over the years. As an indie, it hasn’t always been easy, but that’s where experience and frugality comes in. If I didn’t believe that this project would work, there’s no way that I would willingly just give out my time, a tech stack license that cost over $30M and several years to build - all without getting paid upfront for it. I mean, seriously, who does that?

As I’ve told others, if there’s push back because I, the most famous and vocal dissenter in the DAO, had to be the one to write up such a detrimental and consequential proposal, that’s OK too - but someone had to do it when nobody did. That’s why I stepped up. That said, I can step aside and let someone else use my proposal as well as my designs to go build this. And if my tech stack is to be used, that’s OK too; just pay me a license fee and go build the thing. Either way, we HAVE to find a way to do this. And I don’t care how it’s done or who does it, I just believe that we NEED to do this or something like it. And we don’t have the luxury of time to be messing around having counter-productive arguments and infighting.

Thanks. I felt that it was a fair proposal. It’s a lot more generous than standard publishing/distribution deals simply because, as a community project, the incentive is to generate revenue for the DAO, while also ensuring that the project remains self-funded.

Also, there’s no reason why 100% of the revenue couldn’t go to the DAO until the $5M is recouped. The reason for that is for the same reason that dev teams tend to shutter and/or suffer. If the publisher, in this case the DAO, takes out all its funding first, what if the project struggles to generate revenue? It will run out of money. Then it’s bye-bye project.

The worst case scenario if that happens is that someone writes up a proposal to keep paying for the AOW servers for as long as the DAO exists. There are online worlds - right now - not making much revenue, but they’re still going. If we build this, it’s ours. For as long as the DAO exists or someone pays the server costs.

Doing the rev share this way, not only helps the DAO recoup sooner rather than later, but it also ensures that the project succeeds or fails on its own merits. Plus, I do want to generate revenue from this based on the project merits - and that’s my [backend] bet on the project. I get money if the project succeeds than if I front-loaded my rev share. But I’m not going to get anything if all the revenue first goes to the DAO and the project struggles for whatever reason and through no fault of my own.

I know what I’m doing. It’s not my first rodeo. And you could say that I wrote the book on how to survive as an indie game dev. I got this. :saluting_face:

That is a valid concern, and one that I do share. However, my approach to this is the same process that we use in game development: modular + systematic + planning.

For one thing, ACE + ApeID are a no-brainer. I mean, ApeID is not rocket science. Sure, it’s not cheap (e.g go look at the amount of work + costs that went into OtherPage), but it’s just a simple identity system. And ACE is just a web front-end destination.

AOW is the beast - but it’s the core; and without it, this project will not have the intended impact. What’s the point and purpose of ApeID without a tangible engagement funnel? MocaID was incredibly successful because they had that funnel plus a fully engaged community. Are we then going to roll out ApeID, then go spend thousands of dollars promoting it? To what end? What’s the draw? What’s the incentive? What’s the PMF? I personally don’t see any - at all.

The AOW token isn’t something that’s rolling out any time soon. I envisioned it being at least a year out from when this project starts. That’s precisely why I tied the rewards system to ApeID as an engagement funnel to the eventual TGE. So, that one shouldn’t be a present concern.

Possible. But as I am not privy to discussions, I can’t opine on them.

Regardless, I am all but certain that the overlap is likely superficial or perceived rather than a reality.

e.g I had a discussion earlier today with a friend who originally saw ApeID as competition to OtherPage. I was astonished at first because to me, that would mean we can’t have Mastercard because Visa exists - or we can’t support MocaID because we want to promote ApeID. With ACE being a platform destination and AOW being an online gateway, the goal would be to add support for others like MocaID, OtherPage etc. if they so choose. I mean, we just gave OtherPage $1.1M (added to a previous proposal), why wouldn’t they want to support it on ACE while earning rewards for their platform and users?

Unless a team is already building some of the 4 components that comprise this proposal, I don’t see the issue.

But then again, this is precisely what I’ve been talking about whereby we are still not privy to on-going ApeChain initiatives. And so, the community is in the dark about what’s coming, planned etc. And so, we’re all living off copium and hopium - two terrible combos that Yuga taught us lessons in. Who wants to spend their time and effort coming up with a proposal only to find out that something similar was already in the works - but they didn’t know about it? How is that a good thing - for anyone? This is also why the DAO has a three month period before a same or similar proposal can be put up after a pre-existing one fails to pass or is withdrawn.

You guys in the Banana Bill need to put up a page - here on Discourse - with at the very least, a list of the potential projects (and descriptions) that are coming to ApeChain. If deals aren’t yet signed, that’s OK too; then don’t name the team or studio. It’s not hard.

What pre-existing platform exists and which this proposal mirrors or matches?

Which ones would that be?

That’s precisely how they will be done - in parallel.

The issue here is that instead of 4 individual proposals, there is only one. If you’re suggesting that we should have 4 separate projects, I am open to reading how you see that actually working. Bear in mind that of the 4 projects, only 3 - all connected - are needed within a short time frame. The 4th, which is the token, is over a year after the initial launch of the other 3.

I already went through this while writing my proposal - and concluded that nothing exists.

That said, perhaps clarify is needed here. So, let’s analyze each of the 4 projects, and see if I am missing something which we can discuss further and see where the ideas land.

ACE platform


This is a web portal. We don’t have that - we don’t currently have anything that even comes close to it. So, what pre-existing community project do we have to integrate it into?

ApeCoin Online Worlds


This is a virtual online world. We don’t have that - we don’t currently have anything that even comes close to it. So, what pre-existing community project do we have to integrate it into?

ApeID


This is an identity system attached to a rewards matrix. We don’t have that. In fact, the closest that we have, is OtherPage - which is a completely different thing. And their proposal is to build their platform to do something completely different. Using an avatar to login to other online worlds isn’t at all useful unless someone actually uses it. So, to me, that’s just a secondary use case, as opposed to the primary use case of ApeID which is tied to this specific platform + rewards matrix.

AOW E2E Token


This should speak for itself.

Sure, we have $APE, but I have absolutely no intentions of using it in a manner that 1) skews the economics of the AOW platform due its deflationary nature 2) invites regulatory scrutiny once the SEC finally gets around to it

I mean, even Moca are rolling their own token - this despite the fact that their benefactors and indeed some of them, are huge $APE bag holders. Why are they rolling a token instead of using $APE? Because it’s tied to their MocaID points based reward system. Also, they’re not dumb enough to use a pre-existing deflationary token. And also, they need the money because, even with $30M+ raised thus far, you’d be surprised how fast that gets depleted. But having been in Web3 for as long as you have, and given your Web3 ecosystem pedigree, I am certain that you already knew all of this - and more.

My goal - in its entirety - isn’t to prop up $APE bags. Especially not when, at .72c (today), the chance of it ever seeing $2 (almost 2x) again is as slim as Halle Berry showing up at my doorstep and throwing my wife out.

I don’t care about the token. I care about the community - as I always have since the first day that I showed up here. That should always comes first. The community effort is what’s going to trigger the adoption of the token though viable use cases such as this proposal.

I updated the proposal yesterday to include some numbers. But, I can see about putting together a more granular breakdown if that helps. Though they will be mostly useless. Why? Because the minute the budget makes contact with reality, the core of those numbers fades into ether.

e.g. Yesterday, my numbers (which I have due to on-going work on Alganon) indicated to me that a single AOW level the size of an Alganon map (See AIP-316, here and here) would take 30-45 days and up to $250K to create depending on complexity + detail + team size. The costs amounted to about $1M just for the initial 4 worlds.

From AIP-316 : This is a standard map in Alganon:

age02

Then I asked myself why make 4 and not 2? The answer? Because we’re going to run out of content - fast. Then it gets boring, and you then have to start creating superficial incentives for people to come. But, if we started off with a bang - and boom! - we have 4 unique themed lands with events and activities spread out; before anyone notices that they’re being rewarded for staring at the scenery or running down some NPC who is going to give them a trinket or a banana, we would already be working on designs for worlds 4,5,6 - along with plans for how to handle the prefab* based content because AGE currently does not support UGC - and likely never will.

I’m not looking to make Nifty Island or it’s ilk - all of which are either dead or dying due to lack of content and a reason to engage.

Just for kicks, later tonight I will send you a link to a private (it’s not public) trailer of the upcoming Web3 version of Alganon, called Alganon - Rise Again. It will give you an idea of what I’m talking about. If it doesn’t blow your mind, then you should probably check your pulse because you may already be dead.

*PREFAB. This is whereby the same 2D/3D content created for the worlds, are then added to the cash shop dB for people to buy and place on land they own. While AGE already supports prefabs (create item in external 3D editor, export to AGE format, load into AGE editor to place on map), there is no method for a user to use them in the world. We are currently working on specifically this for Alganon RA and it works the same way that you drop an item in the game world it appears. Except, there is a specific UI/UX flow that allows you to retrieve a prefab (house, chair etc) from your inventory and put it on any location within your own land limits. It’s not as easy as it sounds - and it’s been a LOT of work implementing that into an engine that had no concept of UGC. And I opted not to do a full-blown UGC implementation because 1) Alganon RA isn’t that kind of game 2) we don’t have time to do it properly as that would require a major engine update that I didn’t want to risk - let alone spend more months funding

From AIP-316 : This is how a prefab (list to the right) looks in the AGE editor UI/UX:

age01

In the coming days, I will put something together and update the proposal accordingly.

The reason that it would cost a lot more to use third-parties is because, well, those professionals aren’t short of work. And so, costs are at an all-time high. You’re either going to hire people you can pay $10 /hr and hope they come through, or you pay $100 per hour and know it’s going to actually get done. As an indie dev, I am experienced enough to know the difference. Whereas I could hire a group of talented off-shore teams in Asia for half of what it costs me to pay iLogos, Quarantine, Iron Belly etc. you get what you pay for. I pay for experience + results.

That said, as I made clear in the proposal, I am going to engage third-parties for the initial start of this content creation because they’re already familiar with the AGE tools. It’s quicker than putting community teams on an immediate learning curve. And that’s not good when we don’t have the luxury of time. But by integrating community teams into that process, so they learn as we move along, we can build a system that the community then gets to maintain - either as paid or volunteer work.

e.g. LUA is so simple, it’s not even funny. And so, with docs and templates, anyone in the community team with scripting knowledge, can create events either via scripting or using the AGE editor. Similarly, when we get sales targeted prefabs in place, since it would require the content team - not the user - to integrate them into the world via the editor (which they sends it to the server nodes), the community team can handle that as well. No need for highly paid third-parties to do that for us.

Plus, this project was envisioned as a community project and I would like for it to remain so.

I took two weeks to work up this proposal, and I if outlined every facet of the plan, it would be even more voluminous. I have thought of everything because this is all I do - and have done for nigh on 40 (!) yrs now. The community just needs to trust that I can do this. I simply can’t do it any cheaper. But ofc, if during the course of these discussions it turns out that I was wrong (hint: I’m not), then ofc I will revise the ask. Why wouldn’t I? It’s not as if it’s my money, let alone going into my pocket to go buy an island somewhere.

Agreed!

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Love this energy, ApeChain LFG :apecoin: :rocket:

Very supportive of this concept

Who will this be?

Rewarded how?

Any chance I’ll be able to use my Oculus? :joy: I love VR, maybe too early for that on early iteration tho

Does this answer my question above, is this the primary way people are rewarded for engaging? Or are there other rewards as well?

I’m neutral on this topic, however I can comment that my previous experience in working with milestones in control by DAO stewards is a very tricky thing, lots of unforeseen variables tend to pop up. If there were funds locked for milestones, I’d suggest an escrow be engaged with very clear terms. Need to keep it very objective and arms length

I’d play :joy:

I’m not entirely certain on this, however if this AIP is proposing an environment for quests etc, then all that engagement would need to be tied into something somehow, and an APEID seems at first glance like a reasonable mechanism to accomplish that tracking, no? Curious your thoughts

Which would you suggest as alternates?

With a proper incentivization structure building online reputation with a full-cycle rewards structure this could be powerful, need to avoid ponzinomics though at all costs if we want long-term viability

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I am the Project Director. It’s in the proposal; but I should probably add my name next to the title.

Through a points rewards system that is tied to the AOW token. Though you can trade in micro-transactions within AOW, the points rewards system is a separate metric which will later be used to claim AOW tokens at TGE.

There are various rewards funnels listed in the proposal. Below are a few:

  • Minting an ApeID
  • Referral codes associated with your ApeID
  • Using ApeID at participating outlets that support it e.g. MBA outlets
  • Using ApeID at participating dApps on ApeChain
  • Engaging in various activities within the AOW environment. These include event airdrops, quests (standard MMO fare), activities, activating various features within the UX,
  • Ownership of various leading NFTs e.g. Yuga, Moca and others tied to the ApeID
  • Due to AOW having its own economy (standard MMO fare) system, rewards are also tied to specific NFT assets earned/bought/sold/ within AOW

e.g. the most popular events* we had in legacy Alganon when it was live, were Halloween whereby we’d have pumpkins scattered all over the world. Each one you found, was tied to a specific item reward which you then claimed. In AOW, we would do similar events along with others, limited only by the creativity of the community team.

*most games call them “seasons” now - but ours will be regular, and setup by the community team using the pre-existing UX.

The legacy server is offline now, but below is an image from a past Halloween event.

alganon_event

lol! Unfortunately not. The engine doesn’t support VR/AR. So anyway, quests are just game-speak for activities. Below is a screen shot of what a quest description, reward etc. looks like in legacy Alganon.

alganon_quest

The points rewards system is the primary rewards funnel. Then AOW tokens can later be claimed during the TGE later on.

Also, due to how the AGE engine is setup, it will be populated with a host of NFT items which can be bought/sold via the cash shop micro-transactions UI/UX. Just like in a standard online world. Obviously the items will be unique to AOW and not a game (e.g. Alganon), but below is what the online library in legacy Alganon looks like. You just add the items to the dB, and it’s referenced in the game’s cash shop for trading.

This is the same UI/UX that I described in a previous post about how we will handle the prefab based UGC whereby instead of the objects being created in AOW by users, they are created outside AOW and imported into AOW where they can then be purchased and placed in the world. Though that feature is NOT in the current AGE based on legacy Alganon, we will port it over from the Web3 version of AGE used in Alganon Rise Again.

alganon_trading

Indeed. Some people tend to focus on things like milestones, KPIs etc. while not fully understanding or taking into account the fact that it is very nuanced and has to be tailored specifically to the task. e.g. if I pay a builder for a house based on milestones, I can easily tie a payment to the roof going up. But in software, due to the various moving parts, you can tie it to something like “implement mouse support” which will work out just fine. But when you get into things like “make this thing-1 do this other thing-2”, you get into the weeds because there are so many variables involved, that something that was to be done by day-7 in order to trigger a payment, ends up not being done by day-14. Boom! there goes your [funding] runway.

As as software dev yourself, I’m sure that you can relate to this conundrum. In the end, if you are working with a, shall I say, hostile or inexperienced producer of the project, that person can hold up your milestone payment for the smallest thing.

And so, yes, escrow is always a better option in those cases because once you tailor in the parameters and both sides agree to it, only the escrow agent gets the final say.

lol! I think he was asking more about the audience for this and the incentive for “playing”.

Yes - that’s basically it in a nutshell.

Indeed. And yes, the whole ponzinomics is precisely what we’re going to avoid. Which is why I came up with the E2E (Engage2Earn) moniker to describe my thought process. It’s based on standard MMO economics - without the grind. For example, right now, there are millions of people (I am one of them - when I find time) getting Carpel tunnel from tapping Hamster Kombat on Telegram. They have no clue what it’s going to lead to, and whether or not the end game rewards (TON) are going to amount to anything. And Moca just did the same thing. You need a reason to do a thing - and that thing has to be simple, efficient, effective - and rewarding.

Anyway, this is my vision for AOW. In fact, I’m so confident that this will work that even though my current Web3 projects are committed elsewhere, if this project doesn’t make it to ApeChain, I’m just going to put another small external team together and have them go build it on Beam, Base or XAI who I’ve been talking to about future Web3 projects since my current ones are already committed elsewhere. Then hopefully, another team in this community, using this proposal as a blueprint, can go build something like it for ApeChain - and hopefully cheaper - using off-the-shelf software. Either way, I’m going to build this. The question is whether or not it gets on ApeChain. And that’s for the community to decide - and that’s why it’s here in this proposal because my vision for it was for this community. If they don’t want it, for whatever reason - including costs - that’s not on me because I don’t make the rules. I just want to build things.

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This is so true.

This seems to be the unfortunate story of so many currrent metaverse projects like Decentraland, Voxels or Somnium Space. Without a community, which can be incentivized at first, people just won’t populate a geographic region, online or offline.

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Indeed. And the worrying part for me about ApeChain - aside from the fact that there’s currently no buzz or excitement (we have tools for trend tracking) about it outside of our enclave - is that we have no clue what’s going on with it. Having missed its Q2/24 launch, it will hopefully launch this Summer. But then what?

Usually, when a chain is about to launch, there’s a lot of buzz, partnerships, promotions, etc. And most of that tends to gravitate around token airdrops, competitions, allocations etc. Since the token already launched back in 2022, we don’t have that [degen laced] buzz to ride on. And so, what we do have left to be excited about is whatever it is Horizen (responsible for ApeChain growth) has going on in the background. And probably Yuga has something waiting in the wings - who knows? But we have no clue about that either - because there’s no news. I am not adding the Banana Bill to that mix because what Jordan (@Aepicurean) is working on doesn’t have much to do with that because bizdev is a different activity.

The need for targeted engagement was the impetus for my writing this comprehensive 4-project proposal. And ofc by the time it runs the DOA voting gauntlet, months from now, win or lose, we would all be talking about different things having forgotten that this proposal even existed.

Until then, all that we can do is wait and see; but I’m very concerned about what lies ahead because ApeChain is basically the last stand.

I appreciate the amount of time, detail and thought you put into the ACE Platform proposal. This is a big bet, which I like but building with the interconnectivity of the 4 projects is also important. DAOs don’t have typical management structures so this interconnectivity ensures a better/quicker outcome vs. 4 independent projects coming together. It also makes sense given the nature of that connectivity; I’d prefer the natural goal/incentive alignment that will exist with the portal, identity, world and token being managed by the same team. For this to succeed we need that cohesion.

Speed to market is something I appreciate greatly and given a) this isn’t your first rodeo with gaming and b) it’s based on pre-existing off the shelf tech, I certainly have more confidence on the execution as well. Using existing tech is analogous to forking a protocol, it’s efficient and battle tested.

More tactically, the ApeID is something I really like and important infrastructure on which to build moving forward. We’ve seen Animoca and Immutable both do this with their ID systems. Interoperability across the “universe” will be critical.

Tokens will be important to get right of course. My advice here is to focus on demand for the token and why people will want to buy and/or hold it. I’ve seen a lot of complex tokenomic design but many miss this basic principle. Not suggesting this is your approach, but for example, a token that is only used for discounts or voting, by definition sets a ceiling to it’s price, regardless of any supply levers being pulled. Do we buy & hold coupons? Of course not, so why would someone do the same with a digital one?

In the broader context of ApeChain launching this month, I also think a big bet like this is even more critical. We’ve voted down other game builders who aren’t returning (Jonah) and I haven’t heard anything concrete with gaming launch partners (please correct me if I’m wrong). While timing isn’t everything, it’s definitely something and the timing of this proposal also makes it more important.

We only get 1 chance to make a first impression with ApeChain. An underwhelming launch is not a great way to position it for long term success. I’d love to see this come up to vote ASAP. We also know AIPs can be fast-tracked (F1, Banana Bill, etc…) @SmartAPE have you been able to chat with the SC yet on any path to fast track the AIP?

While the Banana Bill doesn’t require gaming projects to only go through their team - I appreciate your comment re: why not the Banana Bill in your FAQ. I think it makes sense on why it wasn’t your initial path. However, if this AIP was voted down for some reason, would you explore the Banana Bill at a later date or would you restructure the AIP?

While I understand you may not be privy to this detail but do you know if there’s any games already building on ApeChain that may compete with this proposal in some way?

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Thanks, Brad!

I am glad that you pointed out the interconnectivity aspect. I was beginning to wonder if I had failed to make this part clear. I even went back and re-structured the proposal for clarity because it’s so detailed that it’s easy for some parts to be missed and/or skimped over.

If I were to split the proposal into 4 parts, this would be the outcome:

PROJECT ERRATA
1-ApeCoin Platform Portal This is just a web platform landing site similar to mocaverse.xyz
2-ApeID Identity This is a login identity across dApps + tied to rewards system
3-ApeCoin Online Worlds Core of the project
4-AOW Token Associated with AOW + the rewards funnel

1 - This is needed for 2 + 3

2 - This is needed for 1 + 3

3 - This is the core of the project and needs 1 + 2

4 - is immaterial because it’s not needed for at least +12 months post-launch. And this doesn’t even need its own proposal because by the time we even start working on it, the project would already be launched and generating revenue to fund it.

So, I truly don’t see how creating 3 proposals (the 4th does not require a separate proposal), aside from DAO voting shenanigans, helps anything.

If it’s about splitting it so it passes at vote, then that’s an even bigger issue to discuss because the DAO has a storied history of funding inconsequential proposals, most more expensive than this. And yet again we have something impactful such as this, and we’re having this same discussion about “It’s too expensive to pass”. That’s just crazy to me. Honestly.

Indeed. And that’s precisely why I chose to go that route. And it’s a lot simpler since we’re not actually building a game.

Yeah, there’s that. In fact, that aspect can be moved into a separate proposal. But all that does is reduce the budget by about $1M. And also, puts a gaping hole in my vision for the associated rewards program, the ApeChain tie-in to other dApps etc.

While it’s one less thing to build, I can simply remove it from the proposal entirely, and not do a separate proposal. Then it becomes someone else’s problem. And I will just go and use MocaID exclusively since they already have their act together. And that, right there, is precisely how early mistakes get made and which end up shaping the future.

Agreed. But I wasn’t even planning on doing anything with the token for some months down the road, since it’s not the focus of the project. It’s just a rewards tie-in to give people something to look forward to as per their engagement.

In this regard, I have also been in discussions with @Grains0x who has vast experience running affiliate programs and has been quite successful with it. My goal for this was to tap into his knowledge and expertise, along with third-party experts (they are listed in the proposal) to augment that experience and to come up with a successful rewards program for ApeID that’s tied into the AOW platform.

Preaching to the choir here. I have been having this very same discussion with several people.

I have no idea how a fast track proposal even works because we have no insight into that. Nor is it anywhere in AIP-1. It appears to be something that the Ape Foundation decides on their own. And since I’m probably the last person they actually want to hear from - about anything - I doubt that my query would get anywhere. I do have good relationship with GwG, so I’ll probably ask them - though I don’t actually expect an answer since they’re a separate entity anyway, and that sort of thing is probably outside their purview. Such is our DAO.

I am in constant touch with Jordan and we’ve been going back and forth about various things even as he tries to get BB up and running under such crazy schedules and timing.

But I still have some concerns about putting this proposal through the BB - even after the fact. For one thing, it will likely no longer be a community project because it would fall under the Commercial Agreements Initiative: Games, DeFi, and other activations which states:

aip454

If the proposal gets voted down, that probably won’t happen until end of Aug to mid- Sept given the AIP backlog that GwG + SC are currently dealing with. And if I decide to go through BB, by the time that gets, discussed, negotiated etc. - and assuming they actually do fund it, then we’re talking sometime in YE24 - especially due to the holidays. That then blows through the [small] window of opportunity completely. Which probably doesn’t matter all that much because, unknown to us mere mortals, there are probably great ApeChain projects waiting in the wings to launch soon, and this project then won’t be all that important anyway. We’ll just have to wait and see, I guess.

Not that I know of. There’s no way that I can see how any sane dev or studio would be working on such a project and it not be public - or even whispered around - by now. Especially in Web3. And if there are such projects, I would be highly curious to know what their reason is for sitting around and waiting for ApeChain. I just don’t see it.

This is so well thought through and could transform and build an ecosystem for ApeCoin that is not only sustainable but also helps both ApeCoin and Mocaverse. It’s very smart to include ApeID in the proposal too. At first, I didn’t understand why, but after talking to you, I see that it builds a real-world use case and an onboarding route for the whole ecosystem to piggyback on.

You’ve got my vote.

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