We should kill APE staking. lol

The subject says it all.

I ran the math and did the research. You know what I found? APE (the token) staking is contributing to the token’s rapid decline to zero. And it neither benefits the token nor the DAO.

From my perspective, there’s no changing, fixing, or arguing about it. Anyone who has even bothered to look and who wants the token to survive and for the DAO to have a fighting chance, knows that we have to kill staking.

Am I wrong (I doubt it, but good luck with that)? Well, let’s discuss it.

ape_staking_trends

ps. I actually have an in-depth proposal which I have been working on and off for the past few weeks. I have opted not to post it because it’s not yet complete. And in the interim, I wanted to see how this discussion goes, as that may determine whether or not I complete and submit it.

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The landscape of withdrawn proposals to kill staking is hilarious to me.

Address clearly inequitable staking yields
Replace Apecoin Only Staking Pool w/ OtherDeed Staking
Leave Staking the F alone!
Slash the BAYC/MAYC/BAKC Staking Pools
Slash the ApeCoin Only Staking Pool
Ending ApeCoin Staking on NFTs
Ending ApeCoin Staking - Completion of Year 1

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This is an impressive list of proposals to either slash or end staking. I never fully understood the benefit to the ApeCoin ecosystem of staking. Other than providing a return to individuals, how does it strengthen the DAO or provide other utility?

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That’s the thing. It doesn’t do either atm. :rofl: It’s just stressing the token even more.

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Originally, I was not a fan of ending staking and have been openly opposed to it. However, I have heard on more than one occasion that there may be benefits. One of those benefits was price go up. But it was not explained to me very well.

Can you explain the benefits of ending staking? Aside from DAO preserving more money. Some would argue that that saved money would go to those with the most voting power through AIPs.

Would love to hear your take.

If you look at the unlocks, the amount going to staking is not the main part of the increase in supply.

image

I don’t think the Jane Goodall Foundation for example is Hodling their ApeCoin.

Frankly for a 10m Contribution in APE they are giving Zero feedback to the community on how these funds are used. Also no ability to take part in their charity. At least with Formula One there are some benefits for holders. FYI, I am not against a massive charity donation, but maybe someone from that charity should join in the DAO.

Also much of the supply is coming from Launch Contributors and Yuga Labs.

Most people who are against staking don’t hold much or any APE. Staking is very different to a token with no Cap of supply. Staking is to give an accumulation method for holders BEFORE enough utility is created, in our case on ApeChain that will bring in new holders and excite current holders to hold more (in Essence increase Demand).

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Agree. (Pointless pursuing this.)

Also, if horizenlabs would have entered into discussions last year and not held our staking contract “hostage” (not my words), I’d agree ending staking would have been worth doing. Now with just a maximum of 25m $ape to be released (we’re almost at year 3), “the only way to save $ape price tanking further” argument seems to be flawed, and somewhat of an exaggeration.

Would 25m $ape save us? :thinking:

Our energies need to be focused on increasing $ape price - not just managing decline so gracefully - all whilst arguing over the next power grab to control the last few pennies. :person_facepalming:

IMAGES:

From transparency report - End of Q1 (31st March 2024) - already 124m $ape approx paid out from 175m total $ape allocated.

Distribution table from AIP-22. (Staking started Dec 2022.)

IMG_0740

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A nice useful summary, thanks.

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Pretty sure charities are under no obligation to tell you what they do with a specific contribution other than to show how they spend their funds. I would know this because I have contributed to various charities over the years, including 3 that I have consistently supported for decades now. When I need that info - which I really don’t care about - I either check their website or contact them directly. And for Jane Goodall, it’s right there on their home page.

Also, maybe the Special Council does this - though doubtful.

lol! Such as?

Why? Because the DAO is so special that just because it donated free money, charities - which tend not to join orgs they get contributions from - should totally join this corner of the internet? For what benefit, exactly?

How is it that each time something like this comes up, it’s always the same narrative “…it’s because you don’t hold $APE”? So, if those people don’t hold the token, what’s in it for them to end staking? That’s something you should think about because the rules of cause and effect dictate that you can’t have one without the other. Let me explain chaos theory to you one day.

Fact is, the token has no utility (arguably, voting in a DAO can be seen as a form of utility). Nobody is buying it for that specific reason. And as I pointed out before in another proposal discussion, no sensible person with one iota of financial sense would buy it just to hodl it. That aside from the fact that staking rewards are pointless at this moment in time.

That is categorically inaccurate. Completely.

To the extent that staking in and of itself can be seen as a form of utility for a token, like $ape, that has none or no consequential utility flow.

There are so many articles about the pros and cons of staking that you could spend a whole day sifting through them. Here’s one from this past July by someone I know and who, as a lawyer and engineer, knows a lot about this than the common man.

Please explain, as per the [aged] chart that @furiousanger posted, how the $124.5M thus far paid out in staking rewards has benefited the DAO and/or the token. So, those rewards are going to keep getting paid, continue to be sold (just like unlocks), and contribute to the further depreciation of the token and exit of funds from the treasury. With the treasury now down to about $100M when all allocated funds are accounted for, that’s $124.5M - exited and with zero benefit or revenue (nobody is buying the token as much as is being exited).

This is specifically why I believe that the token will crater by Q1/25 - and there’s nothing to stop it. I mean, better funded token projects that are older, have way more utility etc. are all down - and with no rapidly fluctuating uptick - but somehow this token is magical and will totally buck the trend.

People who make investments based on emotion rather than common sense and knowledge, are 1) destined to lose 2) exit liquidity. See you in Mar 2025.

That’s called projection, and we all hope that our projections are accurate.

Personally, I have thus far seen nothing that tells me this will be the case as you describe. If you have, do feel free to share.

  1. There is nothing coming to ApeChain that is different from what has been done before - and better - at other chains (even those that are upcoming). That’s why I have been urging everyone who would listen - including the BB folks - that going that route is a road to failure. And it’s why, putting my money where my mouth is, I got some talented friends together and spent over a month designing a platform project (/w a token that uses $ape as spot) that bucks that trend.

  2. Token events through dApps are transitory and not sticky. This means that you mostly buy for the purpose of spending - not hodling. And with tokens all consistently down, there is no catalyst for normies to buy and hodl a depreciating asset. That time is long gone. When outlets like pump.fun, have so much volume that they’re clearing $100M in 6 months - at the peak of memecoin frenzy - it’s clear that the air has been sucked out of the room and that anything that comes after is going to struggle to copy that, let alone break out. To say nothing of Telegram, let alone anything parked on Base. Look what happened over at Blast. Lessons there.

I mean, let me share this again:


New gaming token listings and average performance as of 8/9:

  • Q3 2023: 6 new gaming tokens / -9%
  • Q4 2023: 10 new gaming tokens / -85%
  • Q1 2024: 18 new gaming tokens / -76%
  • Q2 2024: 24 new gaming tokens / -59%

It’s not just gaming tokens that took a hit, it’s all alts. On Binance, since the start of 2024 through 8/9: non-gaming new token listings are down 51.3% on average versus gaming new token listings down 62.7% on average

Full Report

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I’ll just say that I find it super interesting that out of everything you could potentially critique here, you picked a charity.

I have facilitated millions of USD donations to charity IRL. So I am well aware of the sector.

I think my comments regarding the Charity is fair. Heck, I have even Met Jane Goodall IRL like 15 years ago.

Thank you for including the report.

Web3 Gaming Q2 2024: The Bloodbath Continues
But Bloodbaths often lead to Beautiful Destinations

Which part, exactly? You said several things.

Not relevant.

I know what you mean, but that’s not the case in Web3 because rugs are permanent. lol

That is the title in the report, not my opinion.

Yes, I am aware. That you quoted it is why I replied to you about my thoughts.

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I would like to be one of these many charities.

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Will you be building this on ApeChain?

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As of this writing, I really don’t know anymore. Normally, I would leave it at that, but in this case I will explain for the [bookmark] record:

We’ve mostly moved on after re-designing it from an exclusive for ApeChain to a white label platform (similar to other Web3 middleware tech stacks) for other chains - two (of a possible three) of which we are in active negotiations with even as I type this. With advisory from some of my VC friends, and since we had no intentions of funding it ourselves, we even did a small raise to bootstrap the project while waiting to see where the project actually lands first in the coming weeks.

If you’ve read it, you will know that the original plan when I posted it the proposal AIP-487: ApeCoin Community Engagement Platform back on July 8th was for an ApeChain exclusive designed and built for our community and to help the DAO generate revenue very quickly in the short-term. Even as I was putting 3 teams together, I was encouraged to put it through the BB - something that I had been quite hesitant to do. Eventually, in the interest of time (for it to go to vote), and given the DAO voting patterns, as well as encouragement from some of our more influential Apes, we sent it through the BB. While those discussions were going on, I eventually withdrew it as a DAO proposal on Aug 14th.

Despite a lot of exchanges, calls etc (by myself and other team members) with the BB since early August, of which they were already aware of the project since I first posted it back in July, we’ve had no traction, no guidance, no next steps, no deal - nothing. Though I am quite reluctant to say this, from all appearances, it appears as if we’ve been ghosted. And I believe it’s likely due to the AOW component which some believe competes with Otherside. Read on for why we - the team - now believe this to be the case.

That aside from the fact that we’ve been having various BB related discussions in which the team (myself and other team leads) have had to defend the MMO component, AOW, of the project because some influential people - who aren’t even experienced or knowledgeable in these things - have been telling us that it somehow “competes with Otherside”. Having grown tired of having to repeat this over and over, no kidding here, we even had to do a quick and simple non-flashy explainer to express how different it is from Otherside; that AOW doesn’t stand on it’s own, and that it is required by the other 3 project components (ID, web platform, rewards + token) to create a “cohesive whole”. Which is why I refused to break up the project into parts because that would defeat the entire purpose of my designing it that way. Using pre-existing tech stacks, it was designed to be created quickly, efficiently, and to start generating revenue on day one (inside of +3 months from deployment). Just like a low budget indie project would do.

Then yesterday, I was made aware of the The Blueprint which had this in it:

apechain_distribution

As concerned as we were to see that, seeing as it’s basically the tenets (rewards + token etc) of our ACE platform proposal, we just assumed that it was about our ACE project. But we haven’t even heard from BB, and so we just assumed that this was about a competing project or something else.

Yes - rewards are usually part of chain promotions, but that’s when you have a new token as the rewards funnel at TGE. We don’t actually have that. And it’s no easy thing to just roll a utility token (memecoins aren’t that) with nothing attached to it.

Couple that with the fact that it’s also promoting Otherside thus inadvertently sending the message that ApeChain is for Apes - a community that isn’t even large enough to fill a football stadium - it occurred to us that we were fighting a losing battle. There is a reason that companies don’t tend to promote their projects which compete with their own platform partners. You simply don’t do that. Ever. That they’re promoting Otherside - on the official ApeChain page - as the de facto platform for building on ApeChain - whether that was the intent or not - is bound to make other teams pause and re-assess their positions and competing projects. Aside from the fact that, given the ops costs involved, there is no way feasible that Yuga transitions Otherside into an always-on platform - which they would then have to monetize to the extent that it pays for it’s costs. They’ve said as much.

Anyway, we had even informed them - repeatedly - that Sept 1st was the “go no-go” barrier if we were to get anything up and running by YE24. That’s now come and gone - and just like that, we’ve lost the holiday noise and momentum. Oh well.

Meanwhile, nobody even knows when ApeChain mainnet is going live, nor what projects will be deployed on it or how they are going to bring money to the DAO. Speaking of which, that happened Ape Foundation Transparency Report - 2024 - Q1

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In a system where votes can be purchased and certain entities have millions of votes, I would suggest that any single token lacks much voting utility. I think the fact that a $100 million proposal easily passed is a case in point.

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If there was not massive allocation for financial sustainability the DAO would have no long term future.

ENS works as it has a constant revenue stream. Some other DAOs have massive treasuries they stake eth for example and only spend the annual profits.

It is the constant stream of commercial companies asking for grants for things that should be investments I see as the problem.

This is what I wrote when I was running for election. Not all has been achieved but I still think these are the key things.

Motivation

Details on your motivation for becoming an ApeCoin DAO Governance WG Steward

I have a deep passion for Governance and to be at the leading edge of DAO frameworks and development. I am running for the Governance Steward role to address the issues below:

  1. Expand Community Engagement

• Increase decentralisation by the expansion of active and functional delegations.

• Improve methods for spreading information about ApeCoin Dao.

• Reduce AIP implementation risks.

  1. Expand Financial Adoption and the financial sustainability of APE.

• Look at Apecoin to be included in ETFs.

• Consider how to make APE a treasury level token.

• Enable structures so that long term financial returns can come back to the Apecoin Dao.

  1. Expand Technical Leadership and Innovation

• Examine the future position of APE working with experts to determine the options to the community of what it should become? Should it remain as a token under Ethereum? A Layer 2 solution under Ethereum, such as suggested by Polygon? ApeChain on the Superchain (Optimism Foundation)? A Parachain under Polkadot? or something else.

• Look to develop governance tools and processes to streamline the community expansion.

• Innovate new DAO structures to enable both grant making and investments by the ApeCoin Dao.

ApeCoin can be the “Coin of Culture” and to achieve this we need to unleash the potential of a decentralised ecosytem and both web3 and traditional investment vehicles.

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