Just resurfacing this question as some of us interested in already approved Working Groups are still in limbo:
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Sspā¦ We appreciate you following up and the passion you show toward the upcoming MarComms and Metaverse WG Steward elections.
Iāll lead by stating how excited the Governance team is about these two Working Groups and the role we play in providing our community with a smooth electoral process.
Keeping this in mind, itās important to note that there are several factors outside of scheduling which impact our ability to make official announcements. Some of these include Governance Working Group organizational structuring, ratifying the Ape Assembly with a more robust foundation and liability protection as well as minimizing voter fatigue by taking current DAO election cadence into consideration.
Bottom line: weāre close and we appreciate your patience 
AC
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Thanks.
Add'l thoughts
While I can appreciate the need for perfecting the dates before official announcements are made, Iām just wondering why itās a challenge to provide a simple general idea of when the DAO can expect these Steward elections?
Based on the drip of information released they will either take place in concert with the SC elections (option 1), or sometime pretty soon SEPT/OCT (option 2) or sometime in 2024 (option 3).
Option 1 ā seems doable, infra is already drafted but could be info overload for the voters
Option 2 ā seems unlikely as it might be too soon and too much of a workload for you guys
Option 3 ā seems the most likely
Are we on the same wavelength here?
Just need an inkling, a notion, a whisper, a glimmering, a hint of sorts.
Anyway, now that youāre here, and in the spirit of transparency to the DAO, would you mind answering these questions:
1 - I was under the impression that this new and improved budget request would be funded by the yield from the Liquidity Pools as Boring Security seems to be accomplishing - obviously thatās incorrect and thatās on me as the reader, but I also feel as though the term āSustainableā in the title is a little misleading, not false just a little misleading. And if itās working for Boring Security, why are we not depositing the required funds into the LP to cover all expenditures?
Also, $200k of a $663k ask is not necessarily a prime allocation 
2 - Which brings me to this statement about the salaries being covered from the yield of the LPās proposed use of funds which doesnāt seem to be reflected in the attached budget spreadsheet:
3 - With the apparent lack of transparency for when elections may be held for electing Stewards of Working Groups (see above), can you shed some light as to when you expect to begin working closely with a leaderless and unfunded Marketing & Communications WG?
4 - Iām curious, from whom have you secured this authorization? Is this something that other WGs can also secure?
5 - A Monthly Reporting of expenditures to the DAO is the bare minimum. Feel free to also publish Quarterly Reporting, but 4 reports a year as you suggest is a disservice to the DAO:
6 - I donāt have an issue with a funded WG taking on website development BEFORE the Marketing & Communications Working Group develops a brand manual and communications guide (other than basic Branding Principles). Iām hopeful we are then able to amend AIP-246 to reflect this change:
7 - Again, I have no problem with a funded WG taking on IP Guidelines BEFORE the Marketing & Communications Working Group develops IP usage and guidelines (other than basic Branding Principles). And again, it should be pretty easy to amend AIP-246 to reflect this change:
8 - This budget below includes a fair amount of spend on infrastructure. Is it fair to presume that all Working Groups can make use of the infrastructure created, rather than copy/paste the playbook and duplicate the expenditures, which would seem like a waste of our funds?
In other words, can a WG or member submit an AIP and request the funds be deposited into your Liquidity Pool, utilize your 3rd party vendors and NonProfit DAO LLC structure for liabilities and bookkeeping, and leave the GovWG as multi-sigs?
Iām hoping these questions are answered before this AIP goes to Snapshot, even if just for the DAO, sake of transparency and expedited governance.
Thanks
SSP 
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Hey @adventurousape,
Thank you for your questions!
Our process for seeking professional service providers will be robust, but simple. We will start by identifying our needs, then perform comprehensive market analysis to identify potential candidates. We will evaluate these candidates based on their track record, expertise, and alignment with the ApeCoin DAOās guiding values.
We may present a shortlist of candidates to the community for feedback before making a final decision, or in some cases, we may issue a Request for Proposal (RFP) to invite firms to submit their plans for how they can contribute to our DAO. 
Unfortunately the Treasury Working Group wasnāt approved this time, but our reasoning for performing this Sustainability and Compliance Study prior to any resubmission is simple, the DAOās guiding values of Collective Responsibility compel us to assist where possible with these other Working Groups, including Marketing and Communications, and Metaverse. This study can only have positive tangible benefits for the DAO, regardless of who is requesting the work. 
We donāt want to overcommit here to anything before we have approval to structure the Committee (approval meaning, this AIP passing) with the deadline for proposing this structure being in our OKRs.
Certainly! I wonāt be able to touch on regulatory or legal risks, because we do have legal representation to assist us with that regard, but I can get into the security and financial risks.
There are several common risks that exist throughout all of Web3, namely smart contract risks and volatility risk.
Iāll start with smart contract risk:
The Uniswap V3 architecture has been audited by several firms, including:
- A full-length audit from Trail of Bits
- A full-length audit from ABDK
- A full audit from samczsun (no report)
- An auditing and review process from their engineering team
- A comprehensive test suite, including the automated tools Echidna and Manticore
Gamma Strategies is a suite of smart contracts which allow for automated Uniswap V3 LP āvaults,ā which rebalance our LP position automatically whenever it falls out of range.
The Gamma architecture has been audited by several firms, including:
Their complete audits can be found here: https://docs.gamma.xyz/gamma/learn/audits
As for volatility risk, price exposure risk, or impermanent loss:
While Uniswap v3 allows for concentrated liquidity, providing the potential for higher usage of your LP and thus higher fee revenue, it also increases the risk of impermanent loss if your position were to fall out of the price range it was set to. Gamma is designed in part, to lessen this impact because as the price leaves our range, Gamma will automatically rebalance the portfolio into a new range ensuring fee revenue remains to offset any impermanent loss.
Thank you again for your questions AA!
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Hey @ssp1111!
So Boring Security has their own LP, but not a Gamma Strategies āvault.ā This touches a little on your question at the end, but the value of having the vault deployed is anyone can deposit into it, and receive an āIOUā token which represents your share of the assets in that vault, promoting a non-custodial environment for anyone to easily add liquidity to the APE/WETH pair on Uniswap.
While I agree with you that our LP request isnāt exactly a prime allocation designed to support the entirety of the DAOās runway or operational burden, but it is designed as a stepping stone or the next step for this to become a reality. When we say the fee revenue will contribute towards covering salaries, we certainly didnāt mean all of them, or even at this moment in time. Our goal is that our next budget AIP will be less because we already have some inkling of sustainable revenue to fund our initiatives.
I can assure you, as AC mentioned that the Working Groups are our top priority right now. It is our shared Collective Responsibility that compels us to ensure these groups are empowered with their Stewards.
We may explore monthly reporting, but while weāre still getting this airplane off the ground weāre going to stick with the reporting requirements outlined in our Working Group Charter from AIP-239. We have in our budget funding for Bookkeeping and Accounting, so we can definitely work on it.
Yes! Absolutely! I think it would only make sense to take the learnings and process weāre going through now to assist with structuring the other WGās.
As for the second half of your question, from AIP-239:
" Stewards are responsible for facilitating the will of the DAO. Stewards of Working Groups can be mandated to perform tasks, set objectives and goals, sign documents and enter into agreements pending the outcome of our governance process, or an AIP. "
So short answer is yes!
Thank you again SSP for your questions, I hope this helps!
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
Edits have been made to this Topic, by the authorās request.
You can click the Pencil icon at the top of the post to see these edits.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
Sustainability & Compliance Study, along with several other items listed, is the kind of thing SC should be doing for its massive salaries and budget, or should be individual AIPs.
āResearch and Development: To ensure that the ApeCoin DAO evolves into a multifaceted organization,ā
Was there a vote to make a simple āgrants DAOā into a treasury-bleeding big bureaucracy of a āmultifaceted organizationā or was that in the not-yet approved Mission Statement?
Should be Marketing / Coms indeed.
Thereās a LOT here that stinks of power grab or an end-run around things that should be individual AIPs or de facto passing proposals that already failed as AIPs. Exactly how IRL governance turns to a wasteful unaccountable crapshow of initiatives in omnibus bills few if any voters ever read or grasp.
Just call it āboldā.
Whatās the point of OKRs or KPIs - random numbers like 80% traffic increases - without repercussions for failing to meet those goals?
ā ā¦ because of how it has setup its structure. Everyone - and I do mean everyone in the org chart - is likely to get a subpoena once the SEC/CFTC get around to their full-blown crack down.ā - @SmartAPE
While I very much doubt & disagree with the āeveryoneā part, the more important thing is not to presume any funds set aside for legal would be used on behalf of any individual or group of token holders. Thereās never been any such suggestion, much less approved or enshrined wording to that effect. Nor is such wording in this budget.
Only discussions have been legal funds to CYA gov stewards or future WG stewards. Maybe AA. SC already has legal indemnity. The rest of token holders do not, and should never presume otherwise no matter what slush funds are set aside or whatās promised.
Not your coins = not your defense fund. No audits or oversight, remember.
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This is an interesting comment. The Working Groups have in fact been created to set up the structures to create revenue streams etc. To put it differently, without funding for the Working Groups the ApecoinDAO is not going to create any revenue streams etc. Also take into account that a Company like Animoca has more than 100 employees. I am sure they would not be operational if they only had 10 employees and they were all just involved in processing grant AIPs. So to get to the place where we all want to be you need to have more Working Groups and probably about 50 more people in relevant positions if you want to be a global player competing against top web3 companies. When you have an actual staffed structure up and running that is able to conduct business, as opposed to a structure just processing AIPās, then only can you compete on the international stage. So to summarise, you have to spend quite a bit more for quite some time before you can expect any return, because it takes long to get these structures set up and approved in DAO format, but if you donāt do so failure is absolutely guaranteed.
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I agree, right now I see progress at a faster pace than in the last 90 days since I started getting active.
Also for all those who think everyone should just contribute for free you have the issue similar to the free rider problem in economics.
It is easy to criticize it is much harder to build. Everyone who wants a very streamlined DAO should ask what they have done for the DAO in the last month.
Are you writing proposals for the Ape Assembly?
Are you voting on both ApeCoin.eth and apeasembly.eth snapshots?
Are you talking on X spaces?
Discord voice calls?
Are your writing or taking interviews about the ApeCoin DAO?
Have you onboarded people to Discourse?
Have you taken part in the Prop Noun on thankape?
Do you repost when you vote?
Are you building or integrating APE in your products and services?
Are you liking posts others write in here to encourage the writers to continue to contribute?
Do you dollar or unit cost average into APE?
I believe we need these structures to grow and we need to community to contribute when and where they can.
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I understand the point you are making in your comment here. But everyone is sick of the current direction of the DAO currently and is leaving.
I feel like this is something that needs to be understood and addressed before we judge / comment on a lack of participation.
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āWas there a vote to make a simple āgrants DAOā into a treasury-bleeding big bureaucracy of a āmultifaceted organizationā or was that in the not-yet approved Mission Statement?ā
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To be fair, AIP-239 was approved by DAO vote and the following paragraph was contained therein -
āIt is expected that Working Groups will set up their own independent entities, separate from each other, and the APE Foundation.ā
It was also clear that they would do a budget for operations etc.
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40.88% voted in favor of 239 - much less than a mere half of votes cast - with a significant % of the votes in favor cast by members or groups who would directly benefit most by it passing.
The Ape Assembly was part of that AIP and attracted a lot of votes in favor, by people thinking itād turn out far, far differently than it has, to put it mildly.
Mission creep & politics & power plays, expanding budgets & exponential spending and paid positions with no oversight or repercussions just like IRL, which is no surprise when copying corrupt & failing IRL political systems and processes, and virtually none of it crucial to a āGrants DAOā while being fundamental for a Governance & Grifts DAO.
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I would not be so critical. I do think the majority of members of the DAO donāt want a DAO that will just drain the treasury by giving out grants, without getting revenue in return, till the DAO ceases to exist. Budgets are always contentious amongst those that believe that you must spend nothing and somehow something will happen - it wonāt. As for the Grants DAO, the majority of voters currently clearly donāt want to give any grants, because it drains the treasury and there is no revenue. Some would probably prefer to just close the DAO and leave all the funds in the Foundation account and the Foundation should invest it, so there are many different views. With all those approaches, other than the working Groups, there will be little to no progress and certain draining of the treasury. The budget has to pass DAO vote, so there is definitely scrutiny. Amplify indicated on ApeComms that after speaking to the major delegates, that they had indicated that they nearly did not pass AIP-239 because they did not want the Ape Assembly at all, so there is definitely different views on that too.
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Amen 
Every time I think about this AIP (which is very often these days lol) and re-read all the comments, Iām led to your quote above 
Not sure how to contribute to the DAO? Pick anything from @bigbullās list above, do it, then share what you did on Twitter tagging @apecoin, sharing it on the Ape Discord, and talk about it on the next Ape X space. Lead by example, others will follow, and weāll all win as a result. The rising tide raises all Yachts!
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Iāve been thinking a lot on this topic of āwhat is the primary purpose/function of ApeCoin DAOā, and I keep coming up with mixed answers.
Iād love some help in clarifying this.
Hereās from the ApeCoin website Homepage ā About Us section:
"# APECOIN IS FOR THE WEB3 ECONOMY.
Culture has found new expression in web3 through art, gaming, entertainment, and events. The possibilities for blockchainās impact on culture are so endless that they canāt possibly all be predicted yet. APE is a token made to support whatās next, controlled and built on by the community. It will serve as a decentralized protocol layer for community-led initiatives that drive culture forward into the metaverse."
Iāve been asking myself, and ask out loud here in this thread, triggered by reading your comment is;
Whatās the priority for ApeCoin DAO, from the community sentiment perspective I mean, between the websites states priorities of, in order that they appear;
- Culture
- Art
- Gaming
- Entertainment
- Events
Each one of these 5 stated items are yes related, but also quite different from each other. Culture could be considered as an overarching word to represent the follow 4 art/gaming/entertainment/events, so it could be more about those following four.
imho, nailing down and fully succeeding on just one of these four items from a broad, ecosystem-wide perspective, is a massive undertaking. And without clarity on which is the priority, it makes for mis-aligned priorities between a lot of people.
Next topic is the āhowā, which to your comment raises the question; all through grants? Or other?
Community led proposals through a transparent voting process, validated to be in-line with whatever clarity comes from the above 4 priorities, that ultimately lead to approving grants, is for the most part a fairly straight forward process. Basically, funds remain until grants are all given out, done.
Generating revenue to replenish the treasury in order to fund further grants indefinitely is yes related, but in many ways an entirely different topic with a high quantity of both immense benefits and serious risks to consider by all.
And finally, empowering teams to develop Ape IP internally is again an entirely different topic than Grant based funding for community led initiatives.
Iād love to hear everyones thoughts, comments, and input on all this.
Maybe this is a topic for its own separate AIP seeking clarity to help unify our efforts better. Iām open to this as well if the community wants that.
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I agree. And thatās precisely one of the reasons that I removed myself from leadership interest in MWG and AA. At least until thereās clear guidance on how theyāre going to be setup, the indemnities etc.
As Iāve said before, a lot of Web3 people have their heads in the clouds and just think that just because itās Web3/Crypto, the real-life consequences, constraints and liabilities donāt apply. Some of those people are either sitting in prison, in or face lawsuits, or are on the run.
But yes, just because thereās going to supposedly be a legal fund, doesnāt mean anything. As Iāve said before, each member of Ape Coin can be sued at any time - just for being a member of the DAO via holding $APE. I mean, just read the scope of one sprawling lawsuit which Ape Foundation now says theyāve forked out over 400K $APE in legal costs.
Ah, but all of that assumes - incorrectly - that the goal of this DAO is to prosper. It isnāt. I mean, they canāt setup standard working groups - of people - within a six (!!) month span, but theyāre totally going to create a corp structure of 50 people to ācompeteā? Right. Compete with what exactly?
And any manner of competition implies two things: 1) Voting 2) Funding from the treasury
You canāt get to #2 without getting past #1. And you canāt get past #1 when itās controlled by whales who have their own interests as well as by large bodies (e.g. Moca) who consistently abstain.
And even so, thereās currently no tangible budget setup for any working group, other than for salaries.
To save you the scroll, hereās the budget window:
Thereās nothing - absolutely nothing - in there thatās targeted for any revenue generating activities. Itās all spending and salaries and more salaries. So, how exactly are they going to compete - at anything?
I mean, I put up a detailed $5M game proposal - that would have hired people from this our community, get them engaged, involved etc and which, good, bad or ugly, was long-term revenue bearing and from a game that was, on its worst month, was making over $250K per month. Simon and Jonah each came up with their versions of a $20M game publishing AIPs. All of these were subsequently self- destructive due to the fact that they were deemed (ignoring the viability for a minute) too expensive to pass.
So, I ask again. What are they going to compete against and with what?
And if/when the MWG finally gets up and running, what exactly is that group supposed to be doing. I mean, besides getting paid to spin their wheels? Look - just look - at this this charter description. Itās littered with terms that just create more confusion than anything.
āThe Metaverse Working Groupās Mandate is to: āDrive culture forward into the metaverse by actively supporting metaverse-related efforts within the ApeCoin DAOā
Then thereās this:
FYI: ODK is related to Yugaās Otherside game - which, for all intent and purposes, is absolutely and without a doubt in my mind, DOA. Guaranteed.
So, basically, they basically look at the MWG as getting people to build stuff for a game that [checks notes] isnāt even a reality, and probably wonāt be for years down the road.
Oh - and e-sports.
Right. Iāll go first:
- Are you writing proposals for the Ape Assembly?
Yes
- Are you voting on both ApeCoin.eth and apeasembly.eth snapshots?
Yes
- Are you talking on X spaces?
Yes
- Discord voice calls?
Yes
- Are your writing or taking interviews about the ApeCoin DAO?
How is that even a thing? Have you done any of that?
- Have you onboarded people to Discourse?
Yes
- Have you taken part in the Prop Noun on thankape?
No. Why? Because itās not for everyone.
- Do you repost when you vote?
No. I donāt want to be laughed at on Twitter
- Are you building or integrating APE in your products and services?
No. Who is going to pay for it? And whatās the incentive for doing it?
And when I put up an industry standard $5M, then $2M, then $500K revenue generating game AIP-316 - in which I decided to hire from the community as a way to give back some rev to the DAO since itās not setup to receive revenue, people indicated that I was just wasting my time.
- Are you liking posts others write in here to encourage the writers to continue to contribute?
Yes. Thereās a reason that I reached TL2 (I am one of only 40 people to ever receive it) on Aug 22. I joined and posted here for the first time on June 29th.
- Do you dollar or unit cost average into APE?
No. Because Iām not a fool who looks at charts, sees a gradual decline then says āYes! I totally want a piece of that actionā.
So, literally none of the above can or will amount to a āvery streamlined DAOā. Why? Because the effects of a streamlined enterprise involves active measures and involvement. Our involvement in this DAO is largely inconsequential and immaterial. Only the creation of AIPs + the subsequent voting (if it gets that far) - such as it is, are consequential. And even so, go look at the metrics like I have and see how many people create more than one AIP. The reason is simple. Itās very stressful and demoralizing to put a lot of time and effort into something that is all but certain to fail.
I will say this again. IMO, unless it changes direction, the DAO is FUBAR. Itās trying to do things that it was never setup to do and things that are insurmountable given the structure and premise.
Thereās a reason that the guys over at Nouns rage quit by a whopping 80% and voted to fork out.
We could never pull that stunt here because, for one thing, the Ape Foundation will never allow it because it threatens their own very existence. Look no further than the demise of @Moonlyght AIP-277 which got tossed because they said that it would evidently put the DAO in legal jeopardy of signed agreements (which nobody outside of the SC have even seen) - even though that could simply have been addressed by enforcing it at the end of the current term.
Right now, the DAO is involved in a costly lawsuit. And who knows how thatās going to end. And there are bound to be others. And lets not forget about the regulators because, given that this DAO is intrinsically linked to Yuga, I would bet dimes to donuts that fight is coming. Iāve said this before.
Staking $APE is currently a fools errand. Bar none. So, lets ignore that for a moment. What other utility is there for the token? How exactly is the MWG going to be setup to generate revenue - in any meaningful way thatās befitting a corp with a $300M market cap?
Yes - I am angry because there are far too many talented and passionate people in this DAO who are incapable of doing anything tangible because of the limitations. And yet still, tribalism aside, you canāt even voice a dissenting opinion without getting derided, labeled or kicked out of the cool kids club.
But yeah, weāre totally going to have elections in Nov so that we can pay salaries without actually getting anything tangible done for the DAO.
Iām not going anywhere. Iām going to stick around for the lols.
Indeed. Imagine me being a steward in the MWG - something that Iām all but certain isnāt going to happen because Iām the one guy nobody wants in any leadership position around here because Iām nobodyās āyes manā - and saying āOy! We need a $2M a year budget to do meaningful thingsā. For one thing, thereās no clarity that I have found on how the MWG budget is even going to get approved. Is it via the Ape Foundation or is it an AIP? If itās the latter, I should probably start laughing rn.
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Love all of the passion in here, and the viewpoints that come with them.
As a community member before being elected to the GWG, perhaps the biggest surprise to me when entering the DAO was learning how little infrastructure had been put into place for such a large treasury with so many opportunities. Which, as of yesterday, was one year ago to the day.
Fast forward to now, with so community members wanting so many different things but without clarity on what is and isnāt possible, the Governance Working Group is in a position to find these answers together, with all of you and on top of our mandated duties to uphold ApeCoin DAOs primary function, the AIP grant process.
There also appears to be some significant misinterpretations with regard to the relationship between the Foundation and the Governance Working Group, and how this proposal not only further decentralizes ApeCoin DAO ā we protect it.
As a grouping of grant recipients and service providers, once established as a nonprofit DAO LLC, we will become an entity capable of operating on behalf of the community but completely separate from the Foundation, capable of experimenting with initiatives aimed at offsetting a variety of operational costs with liability protection under the DAO LLC.
These are the proof-of-concept and option-proividing benefits we are thrilled to help provide the DAO and in-turn, move forward in more meaningful and sustainable ways.
Exciting times ahead, just be open to growth ā whether that be through information we do not currently have, or actions based off of that knowledge that the community wishes to proceed on.
Enjoy the ride! Progress is good!!
AC
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Iāll believe it when it actually happens. Right now nobody outside of the Ape Foundation has any clue whatās even going on with that. Zero transparency.
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With all due respect Derek, I would suggest that comment shows complete transparency.
And in fact, is the definition of decentralization. Happy to hop on another call to further discuss and keep the thread inviting for everyone to chime in. Please remember that vibes are important, so lets do our best to keep them upbeat.
Not everyone shares the same takes all the time
AC
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