Question, do you intended this to mean that the DAO will be giving you $200,000 in APE in perpetuity for maintenance of Apechain?
It is necessary to create incentives for all members and new entrants to interact, thus generating movement in the network.
Thanks for this idea @SandeepNailwal. I’m not an expert so just a few thoughts.
- Some of you mentioned, that we can build this for free. I don’t see it that way, Who will build it and maintenance it? There are probably people who are able to do it but I doubt it will be free and even cheaper than 200K per year.
- Talking about saving money after we just wasted 11M on Machi’s proposal? It would be 55 years of maintenance of
ApeChain on Polygon - Time is important, we need solution for ETH gas fees and we want to stay in ETH ecosystem. 14 weeks timeline seems great and can really help us with adoption.
- This is AIP idea not proposal so let’s give them every feedback we can and we will see how they implement it into proposal.
- As others mentioned, APE ecosystem is one of the biggest players in WEB3 including Yuga/BAYC, Otherside, Animoca and others. Value which this ecosystem will bring to any L2 is immense. Seems really inapropriate, that Polygon Labs is not recognizing this value in any way.
- Maybe ApeCoin council can approach other L2 solutions and ask them to create their own proposal so we can compare more solutions?
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Thank you to everyone who engaged in the thoughtful dialogue since we posted our AIP Idea.
This Monday at 9 am EST, we will be speaking on a Spaces hosted by the team at Mocaverse where we will provide as much detail and context about this AIP Idea as possible. As part of that, we will endeavor to answer any outstanding questions from this Forum thread.
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I will be present, the debate always adds to knowledge and problem solving.
Hi @SandeepNailwal ,
Your topic would be moving to the AIP Draft phase in less than 24 hours. Are you content with the feedback received or do you wish to extend community discussion for another 7 days?
If we do not hear from you within 48 hours after your topic closes, your topic will be moved straight to the AIP Draft process.
We look forward to hearing from you.
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Thank you to all the ApeCoin DAO members who participated in this Forum discussion – both actively and passively (with over 4000 views, this AIP Idea is one of the most viewed of all time!).
In the spirit of providing as much information as possible, please find below a link to Polygon Labs’ CEO, Marc Boiron, on yesterday’s Mocaverse Space as well as a bulleted list of his most poignant quotes (direct from the transcript). We look forward to moving into the next phase of this process, submitting the AIP Draft.
Mocaverse Space link: https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1YpKkwXPbpAKj?s=20
Is Polygon Labs taking a 30% take rate in sequencer fee’s?
This AIP idea is for an L2 built on the Polygon CDK, and the idea would be that this chain would use APE for gas. ApeChain would have a single sequencer – and all the fees received by that sequencer would go to the ApeCoin community. There have been numbers thrown out, such as 30% of sequencer fees are coming to Polygon Labs. That is absolutely not true, 100% goes to the ApeCoin community. This is unique to Polygon as other solutions do take a % of sequencer fees.
Why will Polygon Labs not take a sequencer fee?
Polygon’s decision not to take sequencer fees is rooted in their philosophy of not extracting value from the Apecoin community. We are offering technology that allows the community to bootstrap a chain rapidly and efficiently without imposing additional financial burdens. The focus is on fostering a mutually beneficial relationship where the Apecoin community can grow and thrive independently while still leveraging Polygon’s resources and technology.
Quote from Marc, “But like if you think about it, when was last time a startup that said, “I think it’s a good idea to send a percentage of my revenue to another team that is doing BD”? Sometimes … [a startup might pay] performance based bonuses to BD people. But setting a percentage of your revenue, when there are fixed costs on the back end is probably a bad idea.”
Why Polygon Labs is focusing on the technology in this AIP Idea and not a grant
The ApeCoin community is awesome. And we believe that the ApeCoin community should not be forced to be part of the Polygon community.
We’d love to integrate the ApeCoin community and the Polygon community, but we think the ApeCoin community should remain its own independent community. And as a result of that, it should have its own independent chain, which is an important part of this. As you read the proposal, what you will see is no value extraction at any point from Polygon Labs.
What we propose is open source software that Polygon Labs has created will be used by the ApeCoin community to create a chain. And as a result of that, we think that there’s massive value to the ApeCoin community that does not exist in any other ecosystem.
What is the $200k cost per year for? Is that $200k going to Polygon Labs?
No, $200k does not go to Polygon Labs, the cost goes to implementation partners to develop and build ape chain. There are multiple implementation partners that ApeCoin community could work with. There’s 4 right now that I can say Polygon Labs has technically vetted and can deliver Apechain. They all will have separate proposals. $200k is a conservative amount so that, if you get comfortable with, let’s call it, the most expensive one, or if there are difficulties for some reason with something you guys want to implement that is different, you have a buffer there. I think it’s important that this is an AIP idea and not an AIP itself.
What is Interoperability and how does it work with LxLy Bridge?
The way the LxLybridge works is that every chain points to the same bridge. And for that bridge to actually allow for any transaction to happen cross chain, it needs to verify on each chain the existence of those assets. And so that is how the very basic version of this operates. And no transaction is permitted unless both chains actually confirm the existence of those assets. Therefore, that bridge does not create new risk in terms of assuming that assets on one chain exist that don’t actually exist.
The Interop Layer sits on top of the LxLy bridge that allows for instant liquidity. These will be atomic transactions with a level of optimistic assumption. All transactions that come to the Interop layer will be Polygon zk proven, that way it is ensured that all proofs are valid. Therefore, we have a very, very, very high degree of confidence this is a valid proof because we assume it on every single L2 that is being used with this bridge.
So as a result of this we are going to allow for this cross chain transaction to happen immediately. Periodically for all of those transactions that have optimistically happened, we are going to prove those transactions to Ethereum, and at that point they will be finalized.
The reason why we’re comfortable doing this is because they’re all using the exact same zk proof system, and therefore, we can have confidence in them before we even prove them back to Ethereum.
Why were two AIP Ideas submitted simultaneously (with the other AIP Idea addressing business development for ApeChain)? Why cannot Polygon “run BD” for ApeChain?
The two ideas are independent of each other, though we believe that Apechain will need its own BD team. The proposals landing together allows for the apecoin community to see the bigger picture.
The truth is many teams ask the Polygon BD team to run BD for them because it has been successful. It’s been so successful, unfortunately, that people think of Polygon as having a good BD team and forget to realize that we literally have the best tech out there.
We’re turning that impression around, because it literally does have the best tech. But to answer your question: Polygon Labs is not a service organization. We create open source software and then we want that open source software to be adopted.
When we start getting into the business of BD, we start getting away from [our] core function. Why is our BD team good? Our BD team’s good because they understand our technology well. They understand the ecosystem well. They understand how they play off one another. Those are things that they will impart upon ApeChain and the ApeCoin community. But it would be a massive resource extraction from Polygon Labs to “run BD” for Apechain.
Our BD team will be there to help. We have a BD team that understands the Polygon ecosystem, what infrastructure will be available to ApeChain. We want help there. We understand where interactions might exist between different CDKs or different builders on POS who could also build on ApeChain… ApeChain is going to be really important for us. It’s a big name therefore, we’re going to put a lot of effort into it. It’s our job to say as a team, we’re gonna help you be successful, but you need to help yourself as well.
Rollups: zk vs. optimistic and the Interop Layer
Everybody knows that optimistic rollups are not the endpoint. So you want something that is zk.
Our vision of unified liquidity that we just talked about is not something that you’ve seen anywhere else or that you frankly will see anywhere else in the short term. The reason why you won’t see it in the short term is simply because you have to have zk proofs. And then you have to have a massive team of zk geniuses to actually build this interoperability layer.
When you have this unified liquidity, you don’t have to attract all of that liquidity to ApeChain. You can actually share in liquidity that sits elsewhere. In addition, Polygon is a massive ecosystem and so when Ape Chain’s looking for infrastructure, it will already exist in the Polygon ecosystem.
There’s no infrastructure provider that you need that has not been built in the Polygon ecosystem. In addition, knowing that Polygon POS is moving to the same validium approach that ApeChain would be using creates the same kind of level of confidence. On top of that, what ApeChain is going to be using is basically what Polygon zkEVM already is using today.
Why Polygon?
I think first, we do actually believe that we are offering better technology. Like, fundamentally, we really do believe that. Second, what you’ve seen in other ecosystems, and we can point to, like, Base as a good example of that is an extraction of value that we’re not asking for here. Right?
So what is there? It’s been very clear that on OP stack, for example, that you’re expected to send 2.5 percent of sequence or fees, back to the collective. That is not something that we are looking to do.
We think that the Ape Coin community should remain in its own community that can leverage resources that exist in the Polygon community, but that it has the freedom to be its own community and that value does not need to be extracted from it. And overall, that is like the key sentiment here, right, is we’ve got technology that allows the fastest bootstrapping of a chain without extracting value from Ape chain.
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This topic was automatically closed after 7 days. New replies are no longer allowed.
Hi @SandeepNailwal ,
Thank you for your ideas [and the ApeCoin DAO community for the insightful discussions]. A moderator will reach out to the author to finalize the AIP Draft using the appropriate template. In accordance with DAO-approved guidelines, if the author doesn’t respond within 30 days, the proposal will be automatically transferred to the Withdrawn category, and the author can re-submit the idea. Once the AIP is Drafted and meets all DAO-approved guidelines, it will be published on Snapshot for the official live voting phase at: Snapshot.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments. @SandeepNailwal please see your messages for the next steps.
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
Edits have been made to this Topic by the author’s request.
You can click the Pencil icon at the top of the post to see these edits.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
@SandeepNailwal has completed editing their AIP Idea to be their AIP Draft.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
Our team has reviewed and discussed @SandeepNailwal 's AIP Draft and have sent a list of initial questions. We await answers.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
@SandeepNailwal has responded to our questions and they are in our review once again.
Additionally, edits have been made to this Topic by the author’s request.
You can click the Pencil icon at the top of the post to see these edits.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
We have sent a list of follow up questions to the author.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
Edits have been made to this Topic by the author’s request.
You can click the Pencil icon at the top of the post to see these edits.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
We have sent a list of follow up questions to the author.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,
@SandeepNailwal has responded to our questions and they are in our review once again.
Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.
Kind Regards,
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