AIP-316: Fantasy MMORPG Game - Powered Exclusively By ApeCoin

Thank you for the detailed reply. I’m a detailed orientated person, so love the clarity. :slightly_smiling_face:

I don’t know if the DAO will vote for this or not, but appreciate you putting this forth and good luck.

Wow, thanks for sharing! That’s huge! So glad to see them entering the space. :clap:

Hi @SmartAPE,

Your topic will be moving to the AIP Draft phase in less than 24 hours. Are you content with the feedback received or do you wish to extend community discussion for another 7 days?

If we do not hear from you within 48 hours after your topic closes, your topic will be moved straight to the AIP Draft process.

We look forward to hearing from you.

-@Facilitators

@adventurousape You’re welcome.

I am not confident that it will pass; but someone suggested that if it fails, I should consider creating a new AIP just for a grant to use $APE as the game’s official token; much like grants given out by some chains to use their chain or token. But doing that takes away my primary incentive (which isn’t money) for bringing this project here in the first place. And if I wanted to do that, like others before me, I would have taken chain/token grants or partnerships long before now.

Yeah, it’s big news. Also, there’s this…

Metaverse momentum and alliances drive $297 million Web3 game investments in July 2023

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@adventurousape Justin (nWay) posted this on LinkedIn a week ago.

Most of us who have been doing this for decades now, do know that without an engaging community, your game - regardless of how great it is - will die. Period.

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Hi @SmartAPE,

Impressed with what you’ve built and your pitch here – wanted to share my thoughts before you go to draft.

I understand the angle of your ask, but personally I think the DAO should be developing the SDK to integrate $APE into as many games as possible, not licensing one game or another.

Use cases are the heart of creating value for the ecosystem and adding $APE into your game could be a great one.

I’d ask for costs to implement $APE usage plus promotional budget and promotion to ApeCoin community. If there are components of the implementation you can share with other devs then that’s even better. Thank you,

BT

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@badteeth Thanks for opining on the AIP.

There are already SDKs and guidelines for implementing tokens in Dapps. So, there’s no need for the DAO to create it’s own SDK as that’s just re-inventing the wheel.

Right. So, asking for grants is the norm, and most chains actually have grants specifically for implementing their token. And with some (e.g. Polygon), there are no strings attached, you can use any chain you like etc.

But that’s not what my AIP is based on. I don’t need money to implement a token in my Web3 games because that’s an inherent part of the game’s funding.

My goal has always been to build a Web3 community around the game. And what better way to do it than with a Web3 community that has skin in the game and is a part of what it can become? It’s specifically why a large portion of the budget goes back into the community.

Take that away, and it’s just a grant to use the token in the game over a period of time. And as I mentioned in a prior comment above, this was already suggested in various discussions. As a result, I have refrained from making such a change (having already reduced the license term from 5 to 2 years); especially as I am unsure as to whether or not the current voting system supports multiple choice options. Without that, I would have to create two specific AIPs because this one is extensively about licensing and cannot be easily revised. So, I opted to just wait and see the fate of this AIP before I embark on a grant angle - which I probably won’t pursue because a grant to use a token wasn’t the impetus for my coming here or setting up an AIP in the first place. Lots to think about for sure.

ps. Yuga is building games that use $APE; not doling out grants.

@Chris.Admin @12GAUGE.admin Does the Snapshot strategy have support for multiple choice?

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Hi @SmartAPE ,

Snapshot shot does support weighted voting. Further information regarding available voting types can be found here.

Kind Regards,

-@Facilitators

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Thanks @12GAUGE.admin ! I was aware that it’s supported in Snapshot, but I wasn’t sure if you guys had implemented it in the snapshot strategy. And if not, it would need to be implemented.

As it stands @SmartAPE, the only items that would go up for a weighted vote for ApeCoin DAO are the first round of Special Council and Governance Steward elections. Currently, any AIP up for Snapshot vote would need to be a single-choice vote, as per AIP-2 (later amended by AIP-200 to include the “Abstain” option).

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ah-ok! Thanks @Chris.Admin for the additional clarity. I wasn’t sure if that strategy was setup in Snapshot. But now I know that it’s not.

I will plan accordingly.

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Hi all,

against my better judgment, and going with the general consensus based on discussions that I have been involved in these past weeks regarding this AIP, I have decided to revise it in the draft.

This means that instead of the AIP being a term license ($1M per year) in which the ApeCoin community would have a hands-on game to play with, help build, promote, have its own exclusive servers etc. and in which a significant portion of the funding goes back into the community, I am going to reduce it to a simple grant for the use of $APE token as the primary token used by the game.

It is conceivable that I may create supplemental AIPs around this project in the coming months, with a view to realizing my original [game licensing] vision which is a lot more impactful to ApeCoin and the $APE token.

It is my hope that you guys will still participate in the on-going activities regarding the game as the development progresses in the coming months.

That is all.

UPDATE: I have now made extensive revisions to the original AIP idea, taking it from a game license AIP to an $APE token use AIP.

To the see differences between the original AIP idea and the current draft, follow these steps:

  1. Go to the top page of AIP-316.
  2. To the top-right you will see an Orange pencil icon with the number 6. Click on that number to reveal the page diffs
  3. When the diff page opens in split-view, on the lower-left you will see several icons, one of which looks like 6 ↔ 7 /7. Click on the << icon to the left of the number 6. Repeat until you get to 2 ↔ 3 /7
  4. On the left of page 2 ↔ 3 /7 you will find the last version (#2) of the original detailed AIP idea which was based on a much more impactful game license AIP which encompasses not just the use of $APE, but also ApeCoin DAO community involvement in the project.

There are also supplemental pages to the AIP, most of which contain outlines of my original vision for the project here on ApeCoin. Below are easy access bookmarks to each one.

AIP-316, supplemental p1
AIP-316, supplemental p2
AIP-316, supplemental p3

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Hi @SmartAPE,

Thank you for your ideas [and the ApeCoin DAO community for the insightful discussions]. A moderator will reach out to the author to finalize the AIP Draft using the appropriate template. In accordance with DAO-approved guidelines, if the author doesn’t respond within 30 days, the proposal will be automatically transferred to the Withdrawn category, and the author can re-submit the idea. Once the AIP is Drafted and meets all DAO-approved guidelines, it will be published on Snapshot for the official live voting phase at: Snapshot.

Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments. @SmartAPE, please see your messages for the next steps.

-@Facilitators

This topic was automatically closed after 14 days. New replies are no longer allowed.

Hi ApeCoin DAO Community,

@SmartAPE has completed editing their AIP Idea to be their AIP Draft.

Follow this Topic as further updates will be posted here in the comments.

Kind Regards,

-@Facilitators

I have updated my prior post above to include additional info and links to my original AIP idea.

I want to add some closing thoughts:

First, below is the DAO’s gaming grant history. I have posted this before, but this chart has more context.

AIP-280, COST: 0
AIP-105, COST: $6K per year ( 1858 $APE value on 08/25/22)

AIP-219, COST: $100K (16,778 $APE value on 02/07/23)
AIP-179, COST: $55,885 (13,981 $APE value on 12/04/22)
AIP-103, COST: $45,270 (215,938 $APE value on 08/30/22)
AIP-78, COST: $216,450 (1M $APE value on 06/30/22)

My original idea for this AIP, and which started with my July 11th post idea was a test of the community’s pulse regarding its approach to gaming. The response from that original AIP idea wasn’t as expected, thus causing me to withdraw (I was new here, and I didn’t realize that a post tagged as an AIP idea could progress further) it with the following statement:

As the Metaverse Working Group, among other DAO initiatives, appeared to be stalled, I had some meaningful discussions with various people here, and which succeeded in convincing me to put up a game AIP regardless. And so, I decided to do this full-blown and comprehensive AIP on Aug 2nd.

As an artist who is a gamer first and a game dev second, I have always been very passionate about what I do. I see a vision - even if nobody else sees it - and I execute on that vision. It’s an instinct that has guided me through decades of industry and career upheavals, while insulating me from the industry wide shenanigans and drama. I have been able to succeed in making the games that I want to make because I frontload all the risk and subsequently reap the rewards of those risks. I’m basically the Leroy Jenkins of game dev. Or maybe this dude.

All kidding aside, I believe that my original AIP was the most impactful for the DAO because, unlike a hands-off grant approach where you take money and never to be seen again, it presented a unique opportunity for the community to engage and be involved in something that it could collab and build - together. As I posted in the comments and supplemental material above, it was also designed to create meaningful engagement and collab with other builder grantees who were fortunate enough to have their great ideas and aspirations realized by the community and thus voted into existence. Hence this costs breakdown (after I reduced the license term from 5 to 2 years).

Total Ecosystem Grant: $2M USD - to be paid in $APE

  • $250K (annual cost) - Alganon IP license use (2 year term, renewable)
  • $200K (one-time cost) - $APE token integration & smart contract dev
  • $300K (annual cost) - Server (x36) Equipment Procurement + Config/Setup (one-time cost)
  • $350K (annual cost) - Hiring & training of the ApeCoin Ambassadors team (12-16)

I didn’t come here looking for money for my game. I have made this crystal clear since the start. I came here to build a bridge between Web2 and Web3 gamers via a close-knit Web3 community which would end up with skin in the game and thus be incentivized to build and promote this project - together. I think a $2M AIP in which $1.3M goes back to the community should’ve been a clear signal that I wanted a lot more than what this current AIP now reflects. And those costs, even if the AIP were to pass, would have still been spent in those very same activities - except with people outside the community.

Also, I knew that the costs of doing this were likely insurmountable given the history of the DAO and the general attitude towards preserving the treasury because it is closely tied to investor’s stakes and incentives. Even as the value of $APE remains on a steady downward trend. You can read my general comments about this in my voting reform AIP - which is also destined to fail.

Games, good games, are high risk and very expensive to make. And the journey doesn’t stop when the game is released. Regardless of the game, it’s a constant iteration via updates, patches, additional content etc. to keep the community engaged and involved. All of which costs a lot of money. Even the largest publishers tend to sunset their live or multiplayer games after a certain number of years. Heck, EA has an entire page to track them.

My original AIP idea would not only have been a major impact on the community, but it would also have generated enough noise for even the most jaded gamer (Web2 or Web3) to - at least - take a peak; especially with my name attached to it.

If you don’t believe in something, not even a little bit, then you probably shouldn’t engage in it. For me, that is the way. Always.

And so, I am planning to withdraw this AIP forthwith because, even if it passes - and it’s not like I have a need for $500K - a grant just to use $APE in my game wasn’t in my original vision; or that’s the AIP that I would have written from the start. Further, as I said before, it’s not something that I had envisioned doing or I would have taken grants from any number of chains and crypto bros that have offered it to me since this Web3 project started back in 2021.

A LOT of you supported this AIP since its inception and across various updates and comments based on your input. Thanks for the assist and for believing in the project.

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Sad to see this get pulled, but I totally understand and agree with the motivations to do so.

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Quick update:

As I continue to discuss various alternative options (incl. splitting my original vision into separate AIPs as the project progresses*) with some of my trusted friends here about what to do going forward, and with the general consensus being to send it to vote regardless, I have now notified the facilitators not to send this AIP to admin review for now, as I don’t want to waste the foundation’s time in the event that I do end up withdrawing it.

I know that this isn’t what most of you who worked with me on this AIP were expecting, but I expect that you understand where I’m coming from with this.

*I will share some info about this as a plan formulates

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Disappointed that this won’t continue through the process but acknowledge your words and trust your judgement Derek!!!

AC

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Incredibly impressed with the the level of detail. It’s a lot to process and looking forward to seeing where this lands and your next steps.

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