AIP-317: ApeCoin DAO Governance and Operations Budget

[SmartAPE]

@br00no

@br00no

“ … because of how it has setup its structure. Everyone - and I do mean everyone in the org chart - is likely to get a subpoena once the SEC/CFTC get around to their full-blown crack down.” - @SmartAPE

While I very much doubt & disagree with the “everyone” part, the more important thing is not to presume any funds set aside for legal would be used on behalf of any individual or group of token holders. There’s never been any such suggestion, much less approved or enshrined wording to that effect. Nor is such wording in this budget.

Only discussions have been legal funds to CYA gov stewards or future WG stewards. Maybe AA. SC already has legal indemnity. The rest of token holders do not, and should never presume otherwise no matter what slush funds are set aside or what’s promised.

Not your coins = not your defense fund. No audits or oversight, remember.

I agree. And that’s precisely one of the reasons that I removed myself from leadership interest in MWG and AA. At least until there’s clear guidance on how they’re going to be setup, the indemnities etc.

As I’ve said before, a lot of Web3 people have their heads in the clouds and just think that just because it’s Web3/Crypto, the real-life consequences, constraints and liabilities don’t apply. Some of those people are either sitting in prison, in or face lawsuits, or are on the run.

But yes, just because there’s going to supposedly be a legal fund, doesn’t mean anything. As I’ve said before, each member of Ape Coin can be sued at any time - just for being a member of the DAO via holding $APE. I mean, just read the scope of one sprawling lawsuit which Ape Foundation now says they’ve forked out over 400K $APE in legal costs.

@ApeForLife

This is an interesting comment. The Working Groups have in fact been created to set up the structures to create revenue streams etc. To put it differently, without funding for the Working Groups the ApecoinDAO is not going to create any revenue streams etc. Also take into account that a Company like Animoca has more than 100 employees. I am sure they would not be operational if they only had 10 employees and they were all just involved in processing grant AIPs. So to get to the place where we all want to be you need to have more Working Groups and probably about 50 more people in relevant positions if you want to be a global player competing against top web3 companies. When you have an actual staffed structure up and running that is able to conduct business, as opposed to a structure just processing AIP’s, then only can you compete on the international stage. So to summarise, you have to spend quite a bit more for quite some time before you can expect any return, because it takes long to get these structures set up and approved in DAO format, but if you don’t do so failure is absolutely guaranteed.

Ah, but all of that assumes - incorrectly - that the goal of this DAO is to prosper. It isn’t. I mean, they can’t setup standard working groups - of people - within a six (!!) month span, but they’re totally going to create a corp structure of 50 people to “compete”? Right. Compete with what exactly?

And any manner of competition implies two things: 1) Voting 2) Funding from the treasury

You can’t get to #2 without getting past #1. And you can’t get past #1 when it’s controlled by whales who have their own interests as well as by large bodies (e.g. Moca) who consistently abstain.

And even so, there’s currently no tangible budget setup for any working group, other than for salaries.

To save you the scroll, here’s the budget window:

This budget proposal requests the allocation of APE tokens totaling $663,500 USD to cover ApeCoin DAO’s six-month governance and operational needs of which $200,000 is planned to be carried over into future GWG budgets as liquidity pool seeding. This strategic decision ensures its continued availability for future initiatives.

There’s nothing - absolutely nothing - in there that’s targeted for any revenue generating activities. It’s all spending and salaries and more salaries. So, how exactly are they going to compete - at anything?

I mean, I put up a detailed $5M game proposal - that would have hired people from this our community, get them engaged, involved etc and which, good, bad or ugly, was long-term revenue bearing and from a game that was, on its worst month, was making over $250K per month. Simon and Jonah each came up with their versions of a $20M game publishing AIPs. All of these were subsequently self- destructive due to the fact that they were deemed (ignoring the viability for a minute) too expensive to pass.

So, I ask again. What are they going to compete against and with what?

And if/when the MWG finally gets up and running, what exactly is that group supposed to be doing. I mean, besides getting paid to spin their wheels? Look - just look - at this this charter description. It’s littered with terms that just create more confusion than anything.

“The Metaverse Working Group’s Mandate is to: “Drive culture forward into the metaverse by actively supporting metaverse-related efforts within the ApeCoin DAO”

Then there’s this:

OKRs to complete before August 2023 Funding Window:

• Develop a strategy for the purchase and usage of DAO owned metaverse assets
• Lay the groundwork to become a lead resource for ODK integrations (based on publicly available information)
• Lay the groundwork for an E-Sports Initiative to explore professional metaverse gaming opportunities. (Does not include gambling)

FYI: ODK is related to Yuga’s Otherside game - which, for all intent and purposes, is absolutely and without a doubt in my mind, DOA. Guaranteed.

So, basically, they basically look at the MWG as getting people to build stuff for a game that [checks notes] isn’t even a reality, and probably won’t be for years down the road.

Oh - and e-sports.

@bigbull

It is easy to criticize it is much harder to build. Everyone who wants a very streamlined DAO should ask what they have done for the DAO in the last month.

Right. I’ll go first:

1. Are you writing proposals for the Ape Assembly?

Yes

2. Are you voting on both ApeCoin.eth and apeasembly.eth snapshots?

Yes

3. Are you talking on X spaces?

Yes

4. Discord voice calls?

Yes

5. Are your writing or taking interviews about the ApeCoin DAO?

How is that even a thing? Have you done any of that?

6. Have you onboarded people to Discourse?

Yes

7. Have you taken part in the Prop Noun on thankape?

No. Why? Because it’s not for everyone.

8. Do you repost when you vote?

No. I don’t want to be laughed at on Twitter

9. Are you building or integrating APE in your products and services?

No. Who is going to pay for it? And what’s the incentive for doing it?

And when I put up an industry standard $5M, then $2M, then $500K revenue generating game AIP-316 - in which I decided to hire from the community as a way to give back some rev to the DAO since it’s not setup to receive revenue, people indicated that I was just wasting my time.

10. Are you liking posts others write in here to encourage the writers to continue to contribute?

Yes. There’s a reason that I reached TL2 (I am one of only 40 people to ever receive it) on Aug 22. I joined and posted here for the first time on June 29th.

11. Do you dollar or unit cost average into APE?

No. Because I’m not a fool who looks at charts, sees a gradual decline then says “Yes! I totally want a piece of that action”.

So, literally none of the above can or will amount to a “very streamlined DAO”. Why? Because the effects of a streamlined enterprise involves active measures and involvement. Our involvement in this DAO is largely inconsequential and immaterial. Only the creation of AIPs + the subsequent voting (if it gets that far) - such as it is, are consequential. And even so, go look at the metrics like I have and see how many people create more than one AIP. The reason is simple. It’s very stressful and demoralizing to put a lot of time and effort into something that is all but certain to fail.

I will say this again. IMO, unless it changes direction, the DAO is FUBAR. It’s trying to do things that it was never setup to do and things that are insurmountable given the structure and premise.

There’s a reason that the guys over at Nouns rage quit by a whopping 80% and voted to fork out.

We could never pull that stunt here because, for one thing, the Ape Foundation will never allow it because it threatens their own very existence. Look no further than the demise of @Moonlyght AIP-277 which got tossed because they said that it would evidently put the DAO in legal jeopardy of signed agreements (which nobody outside of the SC have even seen) - even though that could simply have been addressed by enforcing it at the end of the current term.

Right now, the DAO is involved in a costly lawsuit. And who knows how that’s going to end. And there are bound to be others. And lets not forget about the regulators because, given that this DAO is intrinsically linked to Yuga, I would bet dimes to donuts that fight is coming. I’ve said this before.

Staking $APE is currently a fools errand. Bar none. So, lets ignore that for a moment. What other utility is there for the token? How exactly is the MWG going to be setup to generate revenue - in any meaningful way that’s befitting a corp with a $300M market cap?

Yes - I am angry because there are far too many talented and passionate people in this DAO who are incapable of doing anything tangible because of the limitations. And yet still, tribalism aside, you can’t even voice a dissenting opinion without getting derided, labeled or kicked out of the cool kids club.

But yeah, we’re totally going to have elections in Nov so that we can pay salaries without actually getting anything tangible done for the DAO.

@SeraStargirl

I understand the point you are making in your comment here. But everyone is sick of the current direction of the DAO currently and is leaving.

I’m not going anywhere. I’m going to stick around for the lols.

@ApeForLife

To be fair, AIP-239 was approved by DAO vote and the following paragraph was contained therein -

‘It is expected that Working Groups will set up their own independent entities, separate from each other, and the APE Foundation.’

It was also clear that they would do a budget for operations etc.

Indeed. Imagine me being a steward in the MWG - something that I’m all but certain isn’t going to happen because I’m the one guy nobody wants in any leadership position around here because I’m nobody’s “yes man” - and saying “Oy! We need a $2M a year budget to do meaningful things”. For one thing, there’s no clarity that I have found on how the MWG budget is even going to get approved. Is it via the Ape Foundation or is it an AIP? If it’s the latter, I should probably start laughing rn.

@br00no

Mission creep & politics & power plays, expanding budgets & exponential spending and paid positions with no oversight or repercussions just like IRL, which is no surprise when copying corrupt & failing IRL political systems and processes, and virtually none of it crucial to a “Grants DAO” while being fundamental for a Governance & Grifts DAO.