AIP-124: Thank APE: Decentralized, Automated Rewards for Valuable ApeCoin Contributions

[veratheape]

A few questions:

1. Does ThriveCoin have investors? If so, who?

2. Could you give clarification on monthly cost/timeline?

3. How does this sustainable?

[ssp1111]

gm gm Vera,

Welcome to the forums .

I’ll let @thrivegiraffe and team answer your questions, I just wanted to say hello.

Looking forward to working together as we build out the DAO.

SSP -

[thrivegiraffe]

@0xSword

I’m glad to answer questions, and also confident that the committee can stay highly tuned w/ the community!

@0xSword, thanks for your support and confidence in us! Thank APE wants to maximize the positive impact we have on our ApeCoin DAO and community. Thus, we need diverse ApeCoin perspectives constantly informing and optimizing Thank APE. As a top contributor from Day 1, your perspective and feedback is helpful and meaningful!

@0xSword

My interests and focus is on things like partnerships, so when a new project enters the ecosystem, this initiative can work well with theirs.

Yes! We believe that ApeCoin DAO will get stronger as Thank APE thanks (rewards and recognizes) people for engaging the initiatives and infrastructure we believe in and vote for as a community. Thus Thank APE can thank contributions wherever the ApeCoin community is and wants to be:

Examples of contributions we can thank:

• Create new NFT listing on SnagSolutions [@zheerwagen]
• Submit your own art for luxury goods with ForeverApe [@12GAUGE]
• Onboarding / adding social profiles with Catapult [@lior.eth]
• Attending epic (and philanthropic) parties [@Novocrypto]
• Getting education on NFT / web3 security with Boring Security [@Feld]

** tldr; we can auto-thank any / all ApeCoin initiatives & infrastructure that are desired by the ApeCoin community. It should strengthen our ApeCoin community!

[thrivegiraffe]

@Cardo

I recently started participating in the Apecoin forum, and I’m overwhelmed by the quality here.

Thank you - your feedback means a lot to all of us!

@Cardo

OP certainly makes a great proposal, but there’s certainly the risk of now getting a lot of “nice project” comments. Interesting to see how they filter out low-quality contributions.

Thank you for bringing up this nuance - we address this problem too! We’ve built the Thank APE tech to be just as wary of bad or lazy actors as bots. Bad actors are people who don’t contribute to the DAO to add value, but to game the system. Lazy actors are people who don’t really try.

If our ApeCoin community doesn’t value “nice project” comments, we can disregard those comments. That’s because the tech doesn’t just validate a comment, it validates the context around a comment [e.g. how people respond, the conversations they generate, etc.]. This lets us help ensure meaningful contributions are rewarded, while bad or lazy contributions aren’t!

[thrivegiraffe]

@veratheape thanks for the questions - and for the exciting follow-up conversations and collaboration! I’ve shared extended answers below:

@veratheape

1. Does ThriveCoin have investors? If so, who?

Yes, ThriveCoin has $3M+ in seed investment from a few dozen top VCs and leaders. We limited individual investment sizes in our seed round to give us a broad base of diverse support. Most of our funding comes from known web3 investors, but we also have support from traditional finance. Below are just a few investors we can share:

Firms:

• Lightning Capital
• Flori Ventures
• Sukna Ventures
• Fearless Ventures
• Archpoint Investors

People:

• Justin Kan, founder of Twitch
• Julien Auchecorne, WebN Group
• Robert Wuttke, MD 10x Ventures
• Jeff Bader, C-Suite, NBC Universal
• Bob Scott, former Pres. of Morgan Stanley, board of NYSE

@veratheape

2. Could you give clarification on monthly cost/timeline?

Of course! I’ll do both here:

Monthly costs:
All of the tech, white labeling, customization, integrations, onboarding, server support, and expert guidance is 10k APE a month for 6 months. That’s it! Additionally, 33.3k APE a month circulates right back into the ApeCoin DAO community to thank (reward and recognize) members creating value for ApeCoin.

The tech has required 15+ highly skilled engineers / leaders (e.g. people from Stanford, Harvard, United Nations, White House, Amazon, Crypto-com, Horizen Labs, etc.) and 15+ months to build. Additionally, it’s largely only possible because we’ve been working on and scaling similar kinds of hard problems for large communities for many years together.

Timeline:
Upon a positive outcome with a vote on Snapshot + ApeCoin Foundation approval we can launch IMMEDIATELY (that’s our plan!). In the first 6 months, we’ll have 3 seasons:

Season 1: one month
Season 2: two months
Season 3: three months

During the seasons, we’ll incrementally reward more and more contributions based on the needs and desire of the community. New integrations will happen weekly. And we’ll give the community access to data and feedback so that, together, we may know and improve the impact of our work together.

tldr; We move quickly and deliberately. Impact, excitement, and value for our ApeCoin community and DAO should be obvious. Our work together should be impressive. We won’t settle for less!

@veratheape

3. How is this sustainable?

Great question - one we care deeply about. Thank APE should be sustainable in three ways:

1. Thank APE aims to help build a broad base of highly motivated ApeCoin members who are creating value for our community - and being thanked for the value they create. This should create WAY MORE value (perhaps many multiples more) than .04% of the treasury Thank APE requires in the first 6 months. [Creating more value than cost, is the definition of sustainability!]

2. The purpose of allocating treasury funds to any initiative is to create greater value / utility for all members of the community. Going forward, as Thank APE demonstrates that thanking our community for creating outsized value to our DAO inspires real, sustainable value creation, we can make follow-up AIP proposals to top up the initiative if needed.

3. Existing and future DAO initiatives and infrastructure can allocate funds to Thank APE if they believe in our ability to create value together. @zheerwagen is proposing one such initiative in AIP-139. They want to allocate 25 basis points of each NFT transaction on SnagSolutions to Thank APE - a sustainable source of funding for Thank APE that is no-cost to the DAO. We believe this is the first of many such proposals that can sustainably fund Thank APE and our DAO!

tldr; Thank APE is designed to create much more value than its cost. In other words, it’s designed for sustainability! Beyond that, community infrastructure and initiatives like Snag Solutions and AIP-139 can help fund Thank APE, so that we may continue thanking your valuable ApeCoin contributions long into the future!

[Marklar]

@thrivegiraffe

Create new NFT listing on SnagSolutions [@zheerwagen]

AIP-139 suggests Snag funds Thrive and AIP-124 suggests Thrive funds Snag: is this appropriate? Feels a bit, well, like dogfooding each other at the expense of the DAO and serves to emphasize the risk vector in item #1. If Thrive’s stated goal is to increase DAO engagement can you clarify how Snag creating listings - a function they’re already being compensated for - increases DAO participation?

Further, if Thank APE is a potential recipient of DAO funds from Snag that reside in Snag’s proposed multisig (on Twitter), no one from Thrive should be on the multi-sig which is not currently the case. As proposed, it’s a simple majority where 3/7 are from snag and now a 4th (simple majority) from Thrive tips the balance to majority and is poor risk management from the DAO’s perspective and sets a bad precedent going forward.

[jasonball]

Overall, I certainly agree we need more participation here (I’m very guilty of causally browsing topics, and only voting for life or death matters like staying on Ethereum or not). I wanted to 1) jump in to participate and 2) echo Nix’s thoughts on economic incentives. A “pay to play” system can create misaligned incentives to participate (or bot) the system. It looks like a lot of thought is being given to the exact mechanics.

I look forward to seeing how this proposal progresses - it had me saying “Yes! Get people involved!” as I first read it. We do have too few folks involved (and I’m guilty of that myself) - thanks for putting this forward

[thrivegiraffe]

@Marklar I’ll assume best intent with your replies, and do my best to clear up the incorrect information you’ve shared. I did offer to chat with you one-on-one, but you declined.

1. This is AIP-124, not AIP-139 or AIP-98 (which passed months ago). This is likely the wrong place for most of your reply. But I will address it here.

2. I humbly disagree with your suggestion that it is bad for DAO initiatives to work together. Collaboration is how DAOs create and scale value. Collaboration is also big part of the Thank APE and ApeCoin ethos. Thank APE’s desire to collaborate with other initiatives isn’t “dog fooding" in your words. It means we care and want to work with our community to create more value for the DAO.

3. Your claim (and drawing) suggesting “AIP-139 suggests Snag funds Thrive and AIP-124 suggests Thrive funds Snag” is incorrect. Thank APE is not funding Snag Solutions; we’ve never proposed that.

4. Your claim (in your drawing) that the DAO sends 260k APE to ThriveCoin is incorrect. As explained in the proposal, ThriveCoin would be allocated 10k APE/month for 6 months for a whole host of significant tech services. 200k APE (vast majority) is distributed through Thank APE back to the community as rewards and recognition (thanks!) for their valuable contributions.

5. You critiqued Thank APE possibly thanking community members listing their NFTs on Snag Solutions. While you may not value that activity, the community showed they value it with their votes on Snapshot. Thank APE values contributions that the community values.

6. The Thank APE board - OG Apes and ApeCoin members - will ultimately choose contributions to reward (informed by the community) - not ThriveCoin. This helps us avoid any conflicts. Possibly thanking community NFT listings is just one of hundreds of contribution-types that Thank APE can reward.

7. Your reposts re: AIP-98 multi-sig are incorrect (and aren’t connected to Thank APE). Your concerns, according to you, are based on a tweet from Zach 37 days ago. My understanding is today only 2 of 7 of their future-signers have Snag Solutions ties. Perhaps ask Zach about this on the AIP-98 thread.

8. Your reposts re: ThriveCoin’s supposed involvement in the AIP-98 multi-sig are also incorrect. 0 of 7 signers are from ThriveCoin (or have ever been from ThriveCoin). 1 early proposed signer is on the Thank APE advisory board. It was weeks ago clarified that he wouldn’t be a Snag Solutions multi-sig signer.

If you have additional questions, please reach out to me or any of the OG Apes / ApeCoin members on Thank APE. We want you to be informed and have good information. I am still happy to have a conversation with you too - as I have with dozens of community members who have helped to make Thank APE what it is. I wish you the best, and I hope the above has cleared things up for you!

Warmest,
Daniel

[Marklar]

@thrivegiraffe

Your claim (and drawing) suggesting “AIP-139 suggests Snag funds Thrive and AIP-124 suggests Thrive funds Snag” is incorrect. Thank APE is not funding Snag Solutions; we’ve never proposed that.

Thanks for the clarification. This is not clear in the wording above.

[Marklar]

@thrivegiraffe

It was weeks ago clarified that he wouldn’t be a Snag Solutions multi-sig signer.

Where was this clarified?

[Marklar]

@thrivegiraffe

I humbly disagree with your suggestion that it is bad for DAO initiatives to work together. Collaboration is how DAOs create and scale value. Collaboration is also big part of the Thank APE and ApeCoin ethos. Thank APE’s desire to collaborate with other initiatives isn’t “dog fooding" in your words. It means we care and want to work with our community to create more value for the DAO.

This is not my suggestion. Collaboration is key. Based on your clarification here, collaborative risks in terms of use of and access to DAO funds in a multisig are no longer relevant to Thrive.

@thrivegiraffe

I did offer to chat with you one-on-one, but you declined.

Lastly, and at issue more than just once within the framework of these forums, there is no need to discuss these types of things privately even if I’m in the wrong. Discourse should be public. And where clarification is needed, clarification should be public.

[thrivegiraffe]

@Marklar I’m glad we agree on the importance of collaboration in a DAO. And I’m glad I could help resolve your questions about any collaborative risks connected to Thank APE!

[thrivegiraffe]

@jasonball thanks so much for your feedback! I wanted to share a few quick reflections on your words:

@jasonball

Overall, I certainly agree we need more participation here (I’m very guilty of causally browsing topics, and only voting for life or death matters like staying on Ethereum or not).

Yes on more participation - and I agree on how easy it is to casually browse, even when we know we can help. There is so much talent in our community, and I’m excited to see how much value we can create when we thank our members’ contributions!

@jasonball

It looks like a lot of thought is being given to the exact mechanics.

Yes, lots of thought… and years of work. Still, we won’t get everything right to start. Thanking is a team sport. We’ll learn by doing and continue to evolve Thank APE to get better and better at thanking contributions that create the most value for our ApeCoin community!

@jasonball

I look forward to seeing how this proposal progresses - it had me saying “Yes! Get people involved!” as I first read it. We do have too few folks involved (and I’m guilty of that myself) - thanks for putting this forward

Thanks. It means a lot to me and us to read this. Seriously, thank you! - Daniel

[NFTC]

Very well said! Holding the token/asset should be enough incentive to participate in a DAO.

@thrivegiraffe did your team perform any research among holders to confirm your assumptions regarding low participation? Would they value rewards and if so, what is the value threshold?

The P2E masses will flock to Contribute to Earn. A team of 1,000 contributors could be created for just a $4,000 investment in a liquid asset. Your quality control is noted, but I hope it’s bullet proof.

[thrivegiraffe]

@NFTC thanks for your thoughtful response. I am happy to answer and respond:

@NFTC

@thrivegiraffe did your team perform any research among holders to confirm your assumptions regarding low participation? Would they value rewards and if so, what is the value threshold?

Yes, we did both quantitative and qualitative research. Some of the data is available in the “Motivation” section of the proposal - e.g. ~1% of voting eligible accounts vote, ~2% view the average AIP DRAFT, and ~.03% comment on a proposal.

Also, I’ve spoken with many ApeCoin and BAYC members - and our Thank APE board amplifies that to hundreds. There appears to be broad belief in the community that participation in the DAO is lower than desired. Additionally many people have communicated that they would be willing / able to create more value for ApeCoin if they were rewarded and recognized for their contributions (we call it Thanking APE!).

@NFTC

Holding the token/asset should be enough incentive to participate in a DAO.

In an ideal world for ApeCoin, sure… holding a token would be enough to get people to volunteer hours of their time a week over years to our DAO. But the data is already clear that for most people holding a token simply isn’t enough. The reason is simple: DAO participation has an opportunity cost: people must give up something (like time at work or with family) to do it.

A small percentage of people who are super passionate about our vision and/or hold lots of tokens are willing to, say, review proposals on Discourse daily… for nothing. But for most people, that’s a hard ask. That’s why the numbers are what they are: .03% of people who hold a token respond to proposals on average. Holding a token isn’t enough.

If we want long-term participation in our DAO - and if we want participation that creates real value for our token holders - we need to thank community members who create value for us. It isn’t because people are greedy or even financially motivated. It’s human: people deserve to be thanked for their contributions. Doing so should amplify participation, demand, and good vibes all around!

@NFTC

Your quality control is noted, but I hope it’s bullet proof.

Thank you! We take that as a challenge - and we like challenges! I’ve detailed our approach to quality control in response to other comments. @nix.eth and I have talked through our approach as well, and you can see in a later comment that he believes in our direction too. We understand the environment we’re operating in, and we feel confident that together we will deliver for ApeCoin and our members!

Again, thanks @NFTC for your thoughts and feedback! - Daniel

[thrivegiraffe]

As we excitedly await a Snapshot vote (hopefully) soon, I’m honored to share a few important updates:

1. @veratheape, @Halina.eth, and @0xSword are the newest members of our Thank APE advisory board! They and the rest of the group are known, respected, valued members of our ApeCoin community. They also have complementary skills, talents, and perspectives. (updated photo is below!)

2. The board has been meeting weekly for nearly two months in preparation for creating immediate impact for our ApeCoin community.

3. @ap3father, @foxSlightly, and @PumaJaw are working on suggestions for Thank APE partner nonprofits (all of which accept ApeCoin). Then they’ll gather community feedback!

4. @Halina.eth and @BoredApeG will soon share an update on the board’s starting criteria for how they select and reward value-creating contributions to ApeCoin. They also look forward to your feedback!

5. We are offering support to @zheerwagen and SnagSolutions to create additional value and utility for our community. You can read Zach’s proposal for our collaboration in AIP-139. We are happy to support if it’s desired by the community!

6. We are exploring with @12GAUGE and Forever Apes future collaborations that can generate additional excitement and value in our community. More on that soon.

7. Stay tuned for more Thank APE collaborations throughout the ApeCoin ecosystem - either updated by me, @veratheape or @0xSword. We believe in the power of “together”. Our goal is to eventually thank every ApeCoin contribution that a) our community values and b) creates value for the DAO. In doing so, we can create continuous value creation for ApeCoin.

8. We believe the most resilient communities emerge from the coldest winters - that’s when real passion, brilliance, and camaraderie shine. We believe ApeCoin is one of those communities…. and we are excited to thank (reward and recognize!) everyone who helps show it. Thanking APE isn’t just critical infrastructure for creating real utility and value; it’s the right thing to do for our community!

[ChrisL]

All sounds perfect! Thanks for the updates. Hope to see the platform being live soon.

[Marklar]

@thrivegiraffe

Your reposts re: AIP-98 multi-sig are incorrect (and aren’t connected to Thank APE). Your concerns, according to you, are based on a tweet from Zach 37 days ago. My understanding is today only 2 of 7 of their future-signers have Snag Solutions ties. Perhaps ask Zach about this on the AIP-98 thread.

CryptoZach.eth

It appears ap3father is on the final multisig and, thus, the multisig risks are connected to Thank APE.

[zheerwagen]

Hey @marklar, sorry about this, I may not have communicated the changes clearly enough since we previously announced Ap3fathers replacement on another Twitter post. We also replaced Ap3father with Amplify, LMK if you have any questions!

[thrivegiraffe]

@ChrisL

All sounds perfect! Thanks for the updates. Hope to see the platform being live soon.

Thanks so much @ChrisL!

Also, our team was inspired by two recent Twitter posts: one from @0xWave about ensuring ApeCoin runs “a DAO that’s sustainable in the Very Long Term which requires scrutiny and criticality,” and one from @veratheape recommending more “details and transparency” in ApeCoin proposals.

We’ve long agreed with these sentiments - hopefully this is noticed in our Thank APE proposal and in the detailed responses to the questions in this thread. Still, I want to make it easy for people to see answers to budget and sustainability-related questions in one simple reply. So here goes:

THANK APE BUDGET AND SUSTAINABILITY OVERVIEW

1. In this proposal, Thank APE - built by ThriveCoin - asks for funding of 10k APE a month for 6 months. 100% of the rest of requested funds - up to 33.3k APE a month for 6 months - are circulated to community members after they’ve created value for our DAO.

2. Our own cost to build the core Thank APE infrastructure is USD seven-figures - many, many times what we asked for in this proposal. Our own cost to white label and build special ApeCoin-specific integrations is est. around double what we asked (~ 600+ engineering hours a month).

3. Few engineering teams in the world have the web3 sophistication / experience to build Thank APE infrastructure (our team has scaled products to millions of users, held leadership positions in top web3 orgs / communities, and worked together for years on similar kinds of problems).

4. We proposed to receive our budget in APE - rather than USD - because we wanted our own “fate” to be intertwined with our ApeCoin community’s fate. If APE price decreased by 35% because of unexpected market conditions, we were willing to feel the hit too. This happened. It hasn’t phased us.

5. We are delivering Thank APE at a loss - even though doing so isn’t optimal for any protocol or organization - because a) we’re Apes and we care! and b) we believe we will create extraordinary value together, and we trust the excitement and goodwill will rub off on us.

6. We are already working to make Thank APE long-term sustainable. This is evident in collaborations with already-passed initiatives like Snag Solutions, Forever Apes, and more to share soon. We see a future where Thank APE can create continuous value for ApeCoin and be fully self-sustaining!

tldr; Thank APE is providing core, scalable ApeCoin infrastructure (rewarding and recognizing value-creating ApeCoin contributions!) to our community in a way that minimizes cost to our DAO, maximizes value creation for our DAO, and builds on a shared vision of long-term sustainability!