After the recent twin failures of Gerry’s 13.8M delegated AIP-489: Restoring Balance and my 15M delegated AIP-474: Delegated ApeCoin Community Voting Wallet, this is probably the closest that we’re going to get to countering the influence of the two (Mocaverse at 6.3M and Horizen down to 3.1M) whale wallets in our voting system.
Barely three days ago, and the coincidence (it is, tho?) isn’t lost on me, Horizen Labs (via Spencer) claimed that they were…wait, I’ll just quote the whole thing…
"Please note that Horizen Labs will be making adjustments to its voting strategy for ApeCoin. As we move forward, this will include more delegation and less direct voting. There will likely be a gap in our voting record over the next few weeks as we’re actively moving things around and preparing for this.
On the one hand, we want to avoid the appearance of conflicts with our involvement with ApeChain and the Banana Bill. On the other, we believe the DAO and Foundation are in a much stronger place thanks to the tireless work of the SC, Foundation, new and existing delegations, the Governance Working Group, and others.
We will step in with voting if/when absolutely needed and continue to offer our resources, advice, thoughts, and assistance on AIPs. But it’s time to ensure more voting power is in the community’s hands. Looking forward to working closely with delegations and continuing to push the ecosystem forward! !"
So, as I had predicted, we now we have a full-on arms race. I can’t wait to see how @yatsiu team at Animoca react to this one, given his comments in this thread.
At the end of the day, this is a temp stop-gap measure. We need to fix the DAO voting system. That’s the long and short of it.
What we saw with thebannerguy’s proposal was a total power grab, funded by the DAO treasury, and later using methods which many in the community saw as highly questionable.
Difference with BAYC delegation is that hundreds of apes will now have a say, instead of a few who control large amount of assets. (Remember thebennerguy referencing 140K assets yet set quorum to 420 lol.)
Why would anyone be upset with a delegation that represents the many & was created by funds the founders have the right to delegate as they wish.
I dread to think what would have happened here had we not stopped AIP-489.
When something right it’s right - this feels right - LFG.
This is absolutely the right move and we have absolutely no issue with this, they have the right to delegate their property and as mentioned it’s great to see Yuga finally lean in more directly.
The irony of Yuga having to delegate 6.5M tokens to Apes who could very well have done precisely that if they cared about the DAO like we do, will never not be funny.
This move was needed because most Apes dumped their tokens, don’t vote in the DAO, don’t care about the DAO to any meaningful extent, and would rather it not even exist due to all the shenanigans that lead to the treasury being depleted and which also affects the token.
Garga has long expressed concerns about the DAO, and repeatedly asserted that they would not be involved in the DAO.
Hopefully now that ApeChain is a thing and facing major competive headwinds, this is a signal that they are reversing their position on the DAO.
Fact is, neither Yuga nor Apes are large enough to carry ApeChain. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just being ignorant. I have said this over and over again - and in time - I am confident that I will be proven right.
Yuga assets, the token, the treasury - are all down pretty bad as a result of this being an ecosystem that doesn’t expand, isn’t energized (e.g. see Mocaverse, Pudgies etc) in terms of activities, outlook, collab, expansion etc. It’s the same people, the same noise, the same bubble - all in the same [small] bubble churn.
Expansion in anything requires a lot of thinking outside the bubble. And in-fighting while alienating outsiders by being elitist, retaliatory, selfish - and ignorant is how communities stagnate - then die, leaving behind all those who thought they had all the answers while ignoring new people, new ideas, new initiatives and the spirit of prosperity.
And while I am on the subject, I am just going to say this:
In the general scheme of things, a 6.5M voting wallet, while a good start, sends the wrong message of inclusion. Why delegate it to a group of MBA most of whom don’t give a toss about the DAO like we do here do? Why not delegate it to ALL of us in the DAO? So now, MBA holders are considered a different tier who now have voting control in a DAO that most of them don’t actually care about.
Yet there are those - including myself - who have long opposed Animoca delegating 6.3M voting tokens to a community that has ZERO involvement or skin in our DAO and its community. In a way, Yuga just basically did the same thing. And now, MBA are likely to wield power while voting for projects by their Ape buddies - which I don’t particularly have an issue with given the nature of the DAO. Problem is, the community hasn’t grown to match the original 2 yr vision of INCLUSION because few care about the founding principles because they’re regarded as mere suggestions.
To me, this delegated MBA wallet is a slap in the face to all of us who come here EVERY DAY and who have been trying to make a difference IN the DAO. And yet we continue to be treated like second class citizens because we’re not sporting a PFP of an ugly ape while virtue signaling on social media for an average of 9 likes from the same churn of the usual suspects. No growth.
And these things and others are specifically why ApeChain is destined to struggle because water tends to flow downstream. Whatever goes on with Yuga, the DAO, the token will invariably affect ApeChain. And so, unless we change course, we are destined to lose. All over again.
There, I’ve said it.
And with that, I’m done. There’s nothing for me here. I accept that now.
I don’t think we ever said that, I think someone else suggested we should to which our response was non-committal.
Also I don’t think we increased it 4 times (could be wrong mind you) there were/are a few others who have delegated their tokens to the Moca delegatation but these are independents.
“Hi furiousanger if this were to happen we would probably match but it may also make sense to delegate to other groups too.”
0
1.5M
1.8M
3.8M
6.3M
While I am not certain about the provenance of Animoca’s delegated amounts in the first two, the last two were by Animoca in 2023, and in what I believe to be an attempt to counter Machi’s 7M voting wallet at the time. There were announcements on X both times.
I think this is an excellent example to set a blueprint for 1 wallet = 1 vote.
I’ve been eagerly waiting for MBA license application to be opened again ever since I got my mutant. This news by BAYC is just cherry on top even tho most business are in USA and might have " follow the popular/louder voice" mechanism but still its good.
Also kinda optimistic about the Horizen move coz it shows that after they force passing their AIPs and planting their own SC they dont have any other motive since they’ve already secured 100 million $ape and other million $$ worth in the form of F1.
So the DAO is safe for now ( or they know the DAO’s treasury is not worth the effort anymore )
I think this is because MBA is an extension of Yuga and a way they can be involved, without being directly involved. Leaving it up to the group of degens who have believed in and signed on with them.
I’m really sorry to hear you feel this way. I am in the MBA system, as are many folks who I know are actively involved in the DAO. They might not be the loudest voices, but they attend the spaces, vote with the $APE they have, work with each other, support each other’s MBA’s, and have heavy outside discussions about the DAO in several chats.
I feel even worse that you feel this way. I think you are very smart, as your name says, and have a lot to offer.
Could you please explain how you believe they can be “involved” without being “directly involved”, and what the context of that is?
The point of my missive is that, aside from most (yes - I checked) of the MBA projects being rebranded crap, what benefit does this bring to the DAO community by putting a 6.5M voting wallet in the hands of the few - most of whom don’t give a toss about the DAO community in the first place? Make it make sense. How does that 1) not send the wrong message? 2) fly in the face of the engaged community, who, by and large, are the ones keeping this on-going slo-mo train wreck alive?
I get all that.
The issue is that when you create a segregated and consequential tier-based system within a community, you end up creating dissent (even if it’s not publicly voiced) and inequality. The very same on-going fight about whale wallets funding grifts, allowing the pillaging of the treasury etc.
My point being, there are about 400 MBA holders, with a few still waiting to sign-up having bought assets at the floor bottom (go figure). Regardless, as we will clearly see once that wallet becomes active, most of those holders have never been a part of this community. That’s been the whole point of this missive that putting such a responsibility in the hands of a few people sends the wrong message. Especially since the very charter of this DAO is that all you needed to be a part of this (whatever this is now), you only needed to hold 1 $ape. That’s it. Nothing else. And now, we have a tier system whereby MBA holders - also DAO members - are now 1 of 3 large voting wallets. HOW is that FAIR and EQUITABLE to the community? Explain that to me like I’m ten years old.
FYI. Little known fact. I owned two Apes - there are few people here who know about them, when I sold them etc. I never - ever - had them as my PFP (opting for other less NFTs which I own) because not only did I not want to stand out or seen to be promoting any particular brand, as a notable gamer and game dev, I wanted to be free to engage with all the communities that I am a part of - equally - without running around with an ugly Ape PFP with an elitist superiority complex that some Apes tend to have a flare for. I personally know several people - right here in this community - who also own Apes but never use them as their PFP, nor applied for MBA license. My point being, anyone can buy/own and Ape, but opt out of the whole scene. The singular point here is that, just like how some people opt out of religious and political discussions whereby you would never know their leanings etc. emblems are identifiers that go beyond the socioeconomic notion that is ascribed to identity. But generally speaking most people just aren’t smart enough to actually think that deeply into things and the consequence of same. That’s how you end up in a cult.
As I said, while I welcome the idea of a 6.5M voting wallet to help balance the voting etc. I believe that the end result simply isn’t going to work out as planned because, guess what, when it comes to our community, hubris is infectious and is a helluva drug.
By not making this wallet accessible to the entire ApeCoin community as my AIP-474: Delegated ApeCoin Community Voting Wallet proposal was designed to do, it causes more harm than good. It’s interesting to me that all the opponents of my proposal as well as Gerry’s AIP-489: Restoring Balance proposal, are suddenly supportive (both in public and in private) of this MBA voting wallet. And my guess is that’s because they are current or future MBA holders who now get to wield some power over the DAO’s voting process. But yet still nobody seems to have an issue with any of this until some point in the future when it all goes pear-shaped - as I fully expect that it will, given past trends - then they’re going to pretend like they weren’t a part of it from the start.
Every single MBA holder should be clamoring for Yuga to make this wallet accessible as a voting wallet that’s for the entire DAO community. It’s not hard to do because other communities, including Mocas, have done it.
This is complete bs - and anyone trying to [blindly] defend it doesn’t actually care about the community writ large.
Right now, my goal is to see my proposals complete their track, then I’m gone. For good this time. I’ve had enough.
They are throwing their weight behind their community by way of their MBA extension. Instead of using that $APE to vote for themselves directly.
I vehemently disagree with this. I think a lot of folks in the MBA community really care about the DAO. I’ve seen it first hand, as I am part of the group chats. As I mentioned they might not be loud, or on discourse everyday (most of us rarely are) but they are active voters, and active in discussion outside of discourse.
There will always be dissent. Doesn’t matter what Yuga does. Someone is always going to have an issue with it. It’s their $APE, they have decided to delegate that to the extension of their community.
So…you’re saying that this move will actually spawn MORE people to be active in the community, and to care more. Isn’t that a good thing?
I think that’s very noble of you. And I love the idea of being able to mingle freely with several groups. Sometimes having one PFP or another can absolutely pigeon hole you in an echo chamber.
I have an Ape PFP. I wouldn’t consider myself elitist.
I don’t understand this part. What is the point of purchasing a membership to the club, if you have no interest in participating in the club? Why would Yuga reward someone that has no interest in being a part of the club in any way, by delegating them $APE?
I gotta be honest. That’s a lot to take in.
I am not that smart. Definitely not smarter than you. You are like, insanely smart. And it’s easy for me to admit that I’ll never be the smartesst person in the room. But…who is the single leader of this “cult”? I don’t feel like I’m in a cult tbh. I like to joke about it, sure. But for the most part, I -personally- feel like I am part of a club, and I like this club. I learn a lot from it.
In my time on this earth. Rarely does something work as planned. Hell, most of the time it doesn’t even go my way. But overall, life is awesome, the experiences - good and bad - are worth participating. It’s good to try new things. To take risks. Yuga is trying something different. That’s not a bad thing.
And despite this, people STILL have issues with Moca. Even Mocas have issues with Mocas. There is no one size makes everyone happy.
As an MBA holder, I’m happy with the decision. Feels good man.
That’s not the same thing. What “weight” are throwing when in fact Yuga gifted them 6.5M in tokens. Why didn’t they see it fit to, oh I dunno, create their own MBA delegation, buy 6.5M tokens and shove it in there - just like what other delegations are doing? e.g. go take a look at Bulls on the Block and how far their delegation has come in such a short period of time.
Sorry, but that’s not how you gauge interest nor dedication to a common cause. It’s precisely why Discourse population is low, voting is, well, nots even go there because I have metrics that speak louder than words.
Sitting in an echo chamber isn’t that. It’s hilarious to me that we’re discussing the merits of “silent” and “public” participation, and somehow they’re equal now.
Yes - of course; but dissent for the sake of dissent is just inconsequential noise.
And yes, it’s their token stash and they are free to do with it as they see fit, but lets not pretend that it’s for the good of the community when it fact it was for the “good” of a section of the community. Are you not getting this salient point being made?
That’s not what I am saying. How does having access to a voting wallet giving rise to participation? Are they somehow going to come here, create accounts en masse, and mingle with us in the lower tier of the rung?
No, the point I was making there is we will see how many of those wallets voting, if identifiable, actual are part of us here - in the DAO.
Precisely so. Glad that you got it.
Each time that I have to actually explain this when I am being cornered for not “promoting or being an Ape”, after I finish laughing at the abject idiocy of it all, I end up feeling like I lost a sizeable portion of my brain cells because for some reason some people simple don’t get it. This despite the fact, as I am able to, I have always supported Apes - one and all by virtue of my existence in this DAO. But somehow, in order to be totally “in” da club one has to also support all the bad actors, scammers and nutters just because they’re sporting an Ape PFP. I don’t play that game because it’s simply not who I am. And when you don’t want or need anything from anyone, they tend to not have any leverage whatsoever over you.
Indeed. And hence the reason that I used the “some” qualifier in that statement.
That’s the mistake - right there. There are a variety of reasons for buying an NFT asset. It’s not just about a membership to a club. You know that, right? For example, some people do it for investment purposes. I mean, as I type this, there’s an entire industry of whales flipping Apes 24-7.
That you believe Yuga has altruistic rather than capitalist reasons for building this whole ecosystem as a way to “reward” anyone is shocking to me. Could you please expand on that, because clearly I’m missing something.
Yuga, like every corp/team that takes money from an end user with a promise of giving something in return, owes their IP holders an obligation to make good on promises made. Whatever they do in pursuit of that speaks more to that aforementioned obligation than it does to any semblance of anything else. It’s no different from the commitments that I, as a game dev, make to my gamers who buy my games.
The MBA holders have a license to an asset that they PAID for. You do get that, right? So, please explain to me - in as few words as possible so that I don’t miss anything - how exactly Yuga is rewarding MBA holders by giving them a 6.5M voting wallet thus placing them above other members of the very same community (that being us - right here). By that measure, it’s saying that those who choose not to buy an Ape either because they can’t afford it or they’re not stupid enough to spend that kind of money on a rapidly depreciating asset, are somehow not equal. Right. So, what about all those people who bought and are currently holding useless Otherdeeds, Kodas etc? Take a moment. I’ll wait.
It was designed to provoke thought.
Ah, glad you brought that up. You see, I’ve always held that if I walk into a room, and I find that I’m the smartest person in that room, I’m probably in the wrong room. The key here is not about being smart, but about also being sensible. A lot of people tend to conflate the two in the same way that they equate an IQ level to someone’s inherent intelligence.
And no, I don’t regard our small corner of the world, let alone da club, as a cult. Far from it. If it was a cult, I wouldn’t be here. I mean, c’mon now. lol.
So anyway, the point that I was making in that missive was to illustrate how people who don’t tend to think things through for themselves, speak up etc. tend to end up following the leads of others - which is how you end up in a cult. I used that as an anecdotal euphemism.
Indeed. And I wholeheartedly agree. Though, all things considered, if my banker, my financial analyst, my teams or even my wife heard me relying on my faith in the universe, they’d probably have me committed to an institution. And knowing my dear wife, she would be the first in line because she would know that something was definitely off with me. lol
Yes - but ofc. But who cares what they think? All we should care about is that Animoca, investors in Yuga, delegated voting tokens to a group of people who have absolutely nothing to do with our DAO. It’s like giving a loaded weapon to a child, and then act surprised when they shoot the family pet. But I digress.
And there is nothing wrong with that. But as much as I think you’re an awesome guy, I will just keep ribbing you over it.
