This tells me that you read the whole proposal - and the voluminous FAQs. Well done, man! 
And yes - you are spot on. Everything you say is specifically why I came up with this idea and spent so much time (over two weeks) working through this. Even so, I was still hesitant to put it up. Which is why I solicited external thoughts for several days before migrating it to this proposal. Knowing that it has high odds of failing at vote, I still wanted it to be a roadmap gift to the community for anyone else who comes after me to go build it - if not me. At the very least, if it fails, I - once again - can go on the record and say “Well, I tried”. That happened last year with AIP-316. If that had passed, we would be having a different discussion right now because the Web3 version of Alganon would be on its way to being migrated to ApeChain as a “first on chain” game. But alas, that ship already sailed - and it’s not turning around.
The best way to build community spark is to make everyone a part of something. It’s precisely how so many communities that have that spark keep growing. I mean, look at our Mocas cousins for example. That community is on fire! And now with MocaID and all the initiatives they have planned, they can only grow even bigger because everything they do is with the simple goal of engaging the community. We here in ApeCoin, amid all the noise and hopium, are lacking this formula and that’s because we don’t - yet - have a common initiative of our own.
My use of my tech stack is NOT to build a game because we do NOT have time nor funding for that. It’s to build a unified online platform whereby we could be having this exchange in AOW via text or audio. It’s just a completely different type of engagement.
And using an engine that already has ALL that’s needed to create engagement by way of quests, competitions, polls, air drops etc. gives us a head start because we do NOT have to build an engine for ANY of that. It’s all there already. All of it. While I hesitate to keep pointing to AIP-316 because I don’t want to create confusion, that entire game is built on this engine and when the game was live, these are ALL of the same activities that we did to grow it to over 350K unique accounts. While doesn’t sound like lot (it’s not because it was a niche indie MMORPG), it’s still more than all Yuga IP content - combined. That’s not nothing.
As I type this, Moca have had over 1.5M MocaID sign-ups, and they’re saying that they have over 700K that are “active”. If we build this platform and tie it to ApeID, there is nothing - but our imagination - preventing us from growing our own in similar fashion because with AOW we will have a lot more than most do. We won’t have the complexity (+mistakes + distractions) of Sandbox, the emptiness (over time) of Second Life, and certainly not the elitist nature of Entropia Universe. Why? Because we’re not building a tiered system. We’re building a community engagement platform where all are welcome to grow. And an E2E rewards system ensures growth of not only the community but also everything echoed across ApeChain.
And if we do this right, we can generate revenue to spark growth instead of going back to the DAO for more money for that.
Right now, all the gamecentric chains - all of them - have either a killer dApp or virtual world that builds and grows their engagement. ApeChain is way behind - but we can fix that in less time than others have been able to. If we don’t do a major community based project like this, and instead the community goes for the quick and cheap, we’d end up with the likes of Nifty Island as opposed to the engagement levels of Pirate Nation et al.
Building something like AOW alone could take decades. With the funding for a parallel approach like this proposal, we can have ACE + APEID up and running inside of 3-4 months, and WIP versions of all 4 planned worlds in AOW inside of 90 (!) days - all ready for testing.
Content creation is only as costly as the number of resources that you throw at it. You could throw 2 guys at a level and pray that they complete it in one month. But throwing 4 experienced guys - all focused on different/specific things - ensures that they actually get it done on time. Sure, it costs more - but that’s how that works. And having worked with teams all over the world, I know who to hire, who to task - and what stuff costs. Nobody is going to send Derek Smart a $150K quote for a task when they all know that I am experienced enough to know that it would only cost $50K. That becomes a very short conversation because people know that I don’t like them wasting my time.
As I type this - it takes me less than 15 mins to create a box in Maya, export it, and load it in the AGE editor. Then walk around with a pre-existing avatar - while interacting with an NPC that I put in the box. Sure, it will be empty - but it’s all there. It’s not different from Unity, UE5 etc. except that there’s nothing to build but backend plumbing and content.
And since I make a decent living already, I don’t need to front-load the money from this. That’s why my plan is to manage the project for FREE while getting a cut based on the performance of the platform as per the revenue (which is how 50% then 20% goes back to the DAO) split.
And as mentioned, I also provide the tech stack also for FREE - for two years because I have no concerns about making money from my work because I always have.
I have managed and funded all my projects because I believe in my work and continue to reap the rewards over the years. As an indie, it hasn’t always been easy, but that’s where experience and frugality comes in. If I didn’t believe that this project would work, there’s no way that I would willingly just give out my time, a tech stack license that cost over $30M and several years to build - all without getting paid upfront for it. I mean, seriously, who does that?
As I’ve told others, if there’s push back because I, the most famous and vocal dissenter in the DAO, had to be the one to write up such a detrimental and consequential proposal, that’s OK too - but someone had to do it when nobody did. That’s why I stepped up. That said, I can step aside and let someone else use my proposal as well as my designs to go build this. And if my tech stack is to be used, that’s OK too; just pay me a license fee and go build the thing. Either way, we HAVE to find a way to do this. And I don’t care how it’s done or who does it, I just believe that we NEED to do this or something like it. And we don’t have the luxury of time to be messing around having counter-productive arguments and infighting.
Thanks. I felt that it was a fair proposal. It’s a lot more generous than standard publishing/distribution deals simply because, as a community project, the incentive is to generate revenue for the DAO, while also ensuring that the project remains self-funded.
Also, there’s no reason why 100% of the revenue couldn’t go to the DAO until the $5M is recouped. The reason for that is for the same reason that dev teams tend to shutter and/or suffer. If the publisher, in this case the DAO, takes out all its funding first, what if the project struggles to generate revenue? It will run out of money. Then it’s bye-bye project.
The worst case scenario if that happens is that someone writes up a proposal to keep paying for the AOW servers for as long as the DAO exists. There are online worlds - right now - not making much revenue, but they’re still going. If we build this, it’s ours. For as long as the DAO exists or someone pays the server costs.
Doing the rev share this way, not only helps the DAO recoup sooner rather than later, but it also ensures that the project succeeds or fails on its own merits. Plus, I do want to generate revenue from this based on the project merits - and that’s my [backend] bet on the project. I get money if the project succeeds than if I front-loaded my rev share. But I’m not going to get anything if all the revenue first goes to the DAO and the project struggles for whatever reason and through no fault of my own.
I know what I’m doing. It’s not my first rodeo. And you could say that I wrote the book on how to survive as an indie game dev. I got this. 
That is a valid concern, and one that I do share. However, my approach to this is the same process that we use in game development: modular + systematic + planning.
For one thing, ACE + ApeID are a no-brainer. I mean, ApeID is not rocket science. Sure, it’s not cheap (e.g go look at the amount of work + costs that went into OtherPage), but it’s just a simple identity system. And ACE is just a web front-end destination.
AOW is the beast - but it’s the core; and without it, this project will not have the intended impact. What’s the point and purpose of ApeID without a tangible engagement funnel? MocaID was incredibly successful because they had that funnel plus a fully engaged community. Are we then going to roll out ApeID, then go spend thousands of dollars promoting it? To what end? What’s the draw? What’s the incentive? What’s the PMF? I personally don’t see any - at all.
The AOW token isn’t something that’s rolling out any time soon. I envisioned it being at least a year out from when this project starts. That’s precisely why I tied the rewards system to ApeID as an engagement funnel to the eventual TGE. So, that one shouldn’t be a present concern.
Possible. But as I am not privy to discussions, I can’t opine on them.
Regardless, I am all but certain that the overlap is likely superficial or perceived rather than a reality.
e.g I had a discussion earlier today with a friend who originally saw ApeID as competition to OtherPage. I was astonished at first because to me, that would mean we can’t have Mastercard because Visa exists - or we can’t support MocaID because we want to promote ApeID. With ACE being a platform destination and AOW being an online gateway, the goal would be to add support for others like MocaID, OtherPage etc. if they so choose. I mean, we just gave OtherPage $1.1M (added to a previous proposal), why wouldn’t they want to support it on ACE while earning rewards for their platform and users?
Unless a team is already building some of the 4 components that comprise this proposal, I don’t see the issue.
But then again, this is precisely what I’ve been talking about whereby we are still not privy to on-going ApeChain initiatives. And so, the community is in the dark about what’s coming, planned etc. And so, we’re all living off copium and hopium - two terrible combos that Yuga taught us lessons in. Who wants to spend their time and effort coming up with a proposal only to find out that something similar was already in the works - but they didn’t know about it? How is that a good thing - for anyone? This is also why the DAO has a three month period before a same or similar proposal can be put up after a pre-existing one fails to pass or is withdrawn.
You guys in the Banana Bill need to put up a page - here on Discourse - with at the very least, a list of the potential projects (and descriptions) that are coming to ApeChain. If deals aren’t yet signed, that’s OK too; then don’t name the team or studio. It’s not hard.
What pre-existing platform exists and which this proposal mirrors or matches?
Which ones would that be?
That’s precisely how they will be done - in parallel.
The issue here is that instead of 4 individual proposals, there is only one. If you’re suggesting that we should have 4 separate projects, I am open to reading how you see that actually working. Bear in mind that of the 4 projects, only 3 - all connected - are needed within a short time frame. The 4th, which is the token, is over a year after the initial launch of the other 3.
I already went through this while writing my proposal - and concluded that nothing exists.
That said, perhaps clarify is needed here. So, let’s analyze each of the 4 projects, and see if I am missing something which we can discuss further and see where the ideas land.
ACE platform
This is a web portal. We don’t have that - we don’t currently have anything that even comes close to it. So, what pre-existing community project do we have to integrate it into?
ApeCoin Online Worlds
This is a virtual online world. We don’t have that - we don’t currently have anything that even comes close to it. So, what pre-existing community project do we have to integrate it into?
ApeID
This is an identity system attached to a rewards matrix. We don’t have that. In fact, the closest that we have, is OtherPage - which is a completely different thing. And their proposal is to build their platform to do something completely different. Using an avatar to login to other online worlds isn’t at all useful unless someone actually uses it. So, to me, that’s just a secondary use case, as opposed to the primary use case of ApeID which is tied to this specific platform + rewards matrix.
AOW E2E Token
This should speak for itself.
Sure, we have $APE, but I have absolutely no intentions of using it in a manner that 1) skews the economics of the AOW platform due its deflationary nature 2) invites regulatory scrutiny once the SEC finally gets around to it
I mean, even Moca are rolling their own token - this despite the fact that their benefactors and indeed some of them, are huge $APE bag holders. Why are they rolling a token instead of using $APE? Because it’s tied to their MocaID points based reward system. Also, they’re not dumb enough to use a pre-existing deflationary token. And also, they need the money because, even with $30M+ raised thus far, you’d be surprised how fast that gets depleted. But having been in Web3 for as long as you have, and given your Web3 ecosystem pedigree, I am certain that you already knew all of this - and more.
My goal - in its entirety - isn’t to prop up $APE bags. Especially not when, at .72c (today), the chance of it ever seeing $2 (almost 2x) again is as slim as Halle Berry showing up at my doorstep and throwing my wife out.
I don’t care about the token. I care about the community - as I always have since the first day that I showed up here. That should always comes first. The community effort is what’s going to trigger the adoption of the token though viable use cases such as this proposal.
I updated the proposal yesterday to include some numbers. But, I can see about putting together a more granular breakdown if that helps. Though they will be mostly useless. Why? Because the minute the budget makes contact with reality, the core of those numbers fades into ether.
e.g. Yesterday, my numbers (which I have due to on-going work on Alganon) indicated to me that a single AOW level the size of an Alganon map (See AIP-316, here and here) would take 30-45 days and up to $250K to create depending on complexity + detail + team size. The costs amounted to about $1M just for the initial 4 worlds.
From AIP-316 : This is a standard map in Alganon:
Then I asked myself why make 4 and not 2? The answer? Because we’re going to run out of content - fast. Then it gets boring, and you then have to start creating superficial incentives for people to come. But, if we started off with a bang - and boom! - we have 4 unique themed lands with events and activities spread out; before anyone notices that they’re being rewarded for staring at the scenery or running down some NPC who is going to give them a trinket or a banana, we would already be working on designs for worlds 4,5,6 - along with plans for how to handle the prefab* based content because AGE currently does not support UGC - and likely never will.
I’m not looking to make Nifty Island or it’s ilk - all of which are either dead or dying due to lack of content and a reason to engage.
Just for kicks, later tonight I will send you a link to a private (it’s not public) trailer of the upcoming Web3 version of Alganon, called Alganon - Rise Again. It will give you an idea of what I’m talking about. If it doesn’t blow your mind, then you should probably check your pulse because you may already be dead.
*PREFAB. This is whereby the same 2D/3D content created for the worlds, are then added to the cash shop dB for people to buy and place on land they own. While AGE already supports prefabs (create item in external 3D editor, export to AGE format, load into AGE editor to place on map), there is no method for a user to use them in the world. We are currently working on specifically this for Alganon RA and it works the same way that you drop an item in the game world it appears. Except, there is a specific UI/UX flow that allows you to retrieve a prefab (house, chair etc) from your inventory and put it on any location within your own land limits. It’s not as easy as it sounds - and it’s been a LOT of work implementing that into an engine that had no concept of UGC. And I opted not to do a full-blown UGC implementation because 1) Alganon RA isn’t that kind of game 2) we don’t have time to do it properly as that would require a major engine update that I didn’t want to risk - let alone spend more months funding
From AIP-316 : This is how a prefab (list to the right) looks in the AGE editor UI/UX:
In the coming days, I will put something together and update the proposal accordingly.
The reason that it would cost a lot more to use third-parties is because, well, those professionals aren’t short of work. And so, costs are at an all-time high. You’re either going to hire people you can pay $10 /hr and hope they come through, or you pay $100 per hour and know it’s going to actually get done. As an indie dev, I am experienced enough to know the difference. Whereas I could hire a group of talented off-shore teams in Asia for half of what it costs me to pay iLogos, Quarantine, Iron Belly etc. you get what you pay for. I pay for experience + results.
That said, as I made clear in the proposal, I am going to engage third-parties for the initial start of this content creation because they’re already familiar with the AGE tools. It’s quicker than putting community teams on an immediate learning curve. And that’s not good when we don’t have the luxury of time. But by integrating community teams into that process, so they learn as we move along, we can build a system that the community then gets to maintain - either as paid or volunteer work.
e.g. LUA is so simple, it’s not even funny. And so, with docs and templates, anyone in the community team with scripting knowledge, can create events either via scripting or using the AGE editor. Similarly, when we get sales targeted prefabs in place, since it would require the content team - not the user - to integrate them into the world via the editor (which they sends it to the server nodes), the community team can handle that as well. No need for highly paid third-parties to do that for us.
Plus, this project was envisioned as a community project and I would like for it to remain so.
I took two weeks to work up this proposal, and I if outlined every facet of the plan, it would be even more voluminous. I have thought of everything because this is all I do - and have done for nigh on 40 (!) yrs now. The community just needs to trust that I can do this. I simply can’t do it any cheaper. But ofc, if during the course of these discussions it turns out that I was wrong (hint: I’m not), then ofc I will revise the ask. Why wouldn’t I? It’s not as if it’s my money, let alone going into my pocket to go buy an island somewhere.
Agreed!