AIP Idea: The Boring Artists Agency: Bringing Billions of Dollars’ Worth of Game Dev and Publishing Talent to Web3 - Powered by ApeCoin

If you would like to explore the idea more please click “vote yes” and give it a heart. Comments and questions always welcome.

Mighty Bear Games (MBG) know what it takes to ship and distribute hit games, as well as the level of intellectual rigor required for a project of this scale. We appreciate that there’s a lot of detail here, but asking grants isn’t monkey business.

In the realm of possibilities, lies a proposal teeming with tremendous upside for the DAO. Yet, let us not shy away from the truth—it demands nothing short of the DAO’s unwavering commitment to witness triumphant success. For, my friends, a venture of such significance merits the weight of profound contemplation. With utmost sincerity, we present this initial proposal as a testament to our resolute dedication to this noble cause. May it serve as a beacon, illuminating the path towards the realization of our shared aspirations. LFG.


  1. $20M grant for the first fully-integrated Web 3video game publisher. Initial $10M to get three to four titles to market. The remaining $10M to scale titles with a path to profitability. This grant would enable multiple fast to market, high upside shots on goal.
  2. Most teams fail at shipping games, this is especially true in Web3. The Boring Artists Agency (TBAA) is made up of industry veterans who have collectively shipped 100s of titles and generated $100Ms in revenues. TBAA will coach partner teams through shipping and get them the help they need.
  3. TBAA has deep expertise in Web2 (mobile, PC, and console) and deep Web3 sector knowledge. A multi-disciplinary approach is needed to make games that can cross over to the “crypto-curious” and run for years, not months.
  4. Publishing requires tech solutions. TBAA will offer its proprietary tech (built and battle-tested over 7 years) to partners. This provides partners with pre-built solutions for running a Web3 game at scale, significantly cutting down on risks and time to market.
  5. The leadership at TBAA has extensive experience negotiating with partners and working with AAA IPs. TBAA will ensure that partners always get a fair deal and access to the best opportunities.
  6. The goal of the DAO is to proliferate and propagate the use of ApeCoin. Our games will bring millions of new users to ApeCoin, and push the DAO’s vision forward.
  7. One-quarter of net revenues will go back to the ApeCoin DAO. It only takes for one title to be profitable for this to deliver huge returns to ApeCoin DAO.
  8. The best growth opportunities in Web3 are in Southeast Asia, APAC, and India. TBAA is based in Singapore, has an intimate understanding of the Asian market, and has the developer and partner networks required to succeed across the region.
  9. TBAA will only publish titles pushing the frontiers of Web3 forward.


Since the dawn of time the wise men of Web3 prophesied “The Great Onboarding”.

“The Great Onboarding” was to be heralded by the arrival of the “Champions of Gaming”. Yet time and time again, the aspirants to the title were defeated by what became known as the three challenges:

  1. Shipping games is really, really hard. Many teams raise huge sums then fail to ship.
  2. Ops is tuff. :confounded: Only 30% of a game’s success is down to product, the other 70% is distribution and operations. Unfortunately, most game teams suck at these because they focus all their energy on making a fun game. The vast majority of great games die a lonely death every year.
  3. Games were not fun. Game development is a craft. Working for other folks for decades allows you to learn from their mistakes, as well as developing an understanding of what goes into making a great game - the boring and unsexy parts of the job.

TBAA, led by industry veterans, is on a mission to support the most promising teams in Web3 and take their games to market. Once the games are ready, TBAA will provide infrastructure, a vast regional network, and operational expertise to scale to millions of users.

These titles will massively increase demand and usage of ApeCoin and the NFTs within the Yuga ecosystem.

ApeCoin DAO will help enable TBAA’s work by financing the development and publishing of three to four titles for a total of $20M. Only $10M will be deployed initially; the rest will be set aside to be deployed if a title has a clear path to scaling and profitability.

Funds will be distributed in stablecoins and $APE, aligning teams with the DAO as $APE holders and giving them a stake in the token’s long-term success.

TBAA will have regular syncs with the ApeCoin DAO’s leadership throughout to ensure the project remains aligned with the DAO’s vision and mission.

Top performing games make billions of dollars per year. If this project is successful, the DAO would benefit hugely and deliver value across the Yugaverse. As importantly, this initiative would deliver on the DAO’s mission to be the “protocol layer for community-initiatives that drive forward culture in the metaverse”.

This would be one of the most ambitious projects ever supported by a DAO and if successful, it’ll kickstart “The Great Onboarding”. Let’s make history.

Team Description

Team: Mighty Bear Games (MBG)

  • Established 2016. The first nine employees left King (makers of Candy Crush, over 3 billion installs and $2.8 billion in 2022) to found Mighty Bear. Today, we are 45 fully-doxxed game developers, dedicated to pushing the frontiers of Web3 gaming.

  • Team has multiple Yuga asset owners. Among the team are several MAYCs, BAKCs, one team member minted 10 Apes (though most sold sub 1ETH :smiling_face_with_tear:), Otherside land, and lots of $APE. The team is full of degens who understand Web3 culture.

  • Dozens of AAA titles in their portfolio and decades of experience working on top-tier IPs including: Disney and Pixar, Star Wars, Harry Potter, Avatar, Rayman Raving Rabbids, Tom Clancy’s Ghost Recon, and Peter Jackson’s King Kong.

  • Diverse team distributed across 9 countries and dozens of languages spoken. Most of the team in Singapore (70%). EU office opening Q4 2023.

  • Prior to Web3, the team was responsible for generating $100Ms worth of revenue in Web2 gaming.

  • The founders (Simon Davis, Benjamin Chevalier, and Fadzuli Said) have all been professional game developers since the 2000s: first in console and AAA, then mobile, and now in Web3.

    Overview of the MBG leadership team

  • Mighty Bear successfully shipped complex collaborations with partners such as Apple (Butter Royale) and Disney (Disney Melee Mania) on-time and on-budget.
    • MBG accomplished collaborations that typically require hundreds of staff over three to five years, but pulled them of with fewer than 40 staff. One project shipped in six months, and the other in 11 months.
  • Currently building Mighty Action Heroes, the most exciting and ground-breaking battle royale built for the blockchain. Start rampaging here!

  • Team built Black Bear atop seven years’ worth of proprietary tech. Black Bear is a backend for Web3 games (a layer online games can operate on, details in the graphic below) which we will share with partners to reduce risk and help get their games to market faster using proven tech. It’s already live in Mighty Action Heroes.

The Mission

We believe in ApeCoin DAO’s founding vision that “Culture has found new expression in Web3 through art, gaming, entertainment, and events. The possibilities for blockchain’s impact on culture are so endless that they can’t possibly all be predicted yet.”

This grant will be used to identify the most promising teams in the space, support them through the development process, and then distribute novel game experiences at the bleeding edge of what is currently possible in Web3.

To onboard the next billion users, we need to offer experiences that showcases the magic of Web3, moving beyond mere replicas of existing Web2 titles.

Many Shots on Goal, Maximum Chance of Success

Inspired by Lockheed’s Martin’s “Skunk Works” achievements via the pursuit of projects at the frontiers of the possible, TBAA will initially back three to four highly capable teams combining traditional game dev expertise with innovations at the cutting-edge of Web3 (such as the ERC-6551 standard) to give birth to new gameplay archetypes.

“Skunk Works” developed the first modern spy plane (the U-2) in 1955.

Leading mobile gaming companies, like Supercell (known for Clash of Clans, Clash Royale, and Brawl Stars, generated $1.9 billion in 2022), have adopted this strategy for years. They excel by employing small teams with minimal bureaucracy, granting them freedom to iterate rapidly and discover winning formulas. This approach has enabled them to generate several billion in revenue annually over the last decade with just a few hundred staff.

TBAA will prioritize deploying numerous potential winners rather than investing heavily in one or two costly projects. This approach fosters innovation and generates more opportunities for success. By nurturing a diverse ecosystem of small teams in friendly competition, collaborating, and sharing knowledge, we will outperform larger, slower organizations with greater resources.

Backed by Experience

Anecdotally, over 80% of games fail to ship on-time and exceed their budgets. This is especially true in Web3 and of teams that don’t have experience running a studio.

TBAA will assist external teams with regular milestone check-ins and offering expert support in game design, tokenomics, engineering, and art. Between us we’ve shipped hundreds of games, and there are few challenges we’ve not encountered before. Additionally, our team can provide coaching and connections to inspiring industry advisors. We understand that the founder journey may not always go as planned.

Avoiding mistakes others have made before and prioritizing the right elements are half the battle won. We will ensure teams have the right focus and decades of experience at their disposal.

An example of a challenging project shipped by Mighty Bear Games.

Fully-Integrated Publishing FTW

Web3 has a number of external publishers (such as TreasureDAO and HyperPlay) that provide distribution via their network. Our approach is different yet complementary: we’re bringing fully-integrated publishing from Web2 to Web3 gaming.

TBAA will focus on:

  • Identifying, funding, and mentoring the best and brightest in Web3.
  • Providing essential tech and tooling.
    • Mighty Bear has the necessary technology to ship and run online games. We will share this with teams who want to focus on shipping or advise teams wishing to build their own tech.
  • Helping teams in getting concepts market-ready.
    • Offering support from veteran leaders in engineering, smart contract development, game design, tokenomics, economics, and art.
  • Conducting in-market tests to validate market potential before launch. Testing retention (how often people come back), engagement (how much they play), monetization (how much they spend), and user acquisition costs.
  • Negotiating with chains, external publishers, platforms, and regional partners.
    • Simon Davis (CEO) and Teri Tan (Head of Finance and Partnerships) both have extensive experience leading complex deals and will ensure partners get fair deals and avoid common pitfalls.
      • Teri has worked on billion dollar M&A transactions, early investments in crypto unicorns, and notable Web3 deals, including the sale of Blockfolio and Improbable’s raise.
  • Handling localization, QA, and culturalization.
  • Providing go-to-market plans, marketing, and user acquisition for both Web2 and Web3.
  • Offering publishing tooling, in-game analytics, user insights, and market intelligence for live games.
    • Extending a game’s lifespan through Live Operations (LiveOps) support, which includes in-game events, updates, sales, and seasonal content.
      • Mighty Bear team been involved in LiveOps for dozens of franchises including: Hearthstone, The Need for Speed, The Sims, and Tom Clancy’s: Ghost Recon, and Legendary: Heroes Unchained

MBG is fully equipped to handle all of the above. TBAA will collaborate closely with partner teams from the outset to integrate Growth features into the development pipeline. This early consideration of Growth and Ops needs ensures real-time data feedback to the development team, fostering a virtuous cycle between publishing and development.

Our integrated approach enables rapid iteration and early validation of market potential in a cost-efficient manner. Only once product-market fit has been demonstrated through rigorous quantitative testing will user acquisition occur at scale. This ensures not a single dollar is wasted.

An ApeCoin Powered Ecosystem of Interoperable Experiences

Example of a Yugaverse game concept mock-up developed by Mighty Bear Games.

The future of Web3 will be made up of multiple interoperable experiences enjoyed by players using assets they’ve collected on their Web3 journey.

Combining this spirit of openness with the ApeCoin DAO’s founding vision, we believe that the DAO’s output should move the space forward, rather than try to provide yet another gaming ecosystem in Web3.

To avoid further fragmenting Web3, we aim to partner with an existing ecosystem, focusing on our strengths rather than competing in well-established areas. Mighty Bear has a strong relationship with TreasureDAO and all the other key players in the space. These titles will bring millions of users to Web3 and push the DAO’s vision of the metaverse forward

For these gamers their first point of contact with the metaverse will not be BTC or ETH, it will be ApeCoin.

The Best Publishers Also Develop Games and Leverage That Knowledge Across Projects

Mighty Bear Games is both a development studio and a publisher. We regularly ship games, collaborate with major partners, and use our tools in a live service environment. The top publishers (Epic, Blizzard, Valve, Nintendo, etc.) excel at working with external parties because they have in-house game development teams that inform and enhance their publishing approach. They have in-house customers to whom they are accountable, which sets them apart from other publishers who create tools without actually using them.

All of the studios within The Boring Artists Agency will benefit from the co-learning opportunities offered by sharing across multiple games. Each game’s successes (and failures) will inform the approach of the next game and vice-versa. This creates a virtuous cycle of collaboration and learning true to the spirit of Web3.

An example of a Yugaverse concept taking learnings from the Mighty Action Heroes Perks System to develop a progression system.

The Economic Opportunity

In 2022, the games industry was valued at $249.55bn. By 2030, it is expected to reach a staggering $665.8bn. The dominant platform by far is mobile representing 77.7% of digital gaming revenues (and over half of all games industry revenues). For context, Web3 gaming generated $3.4bn in 2023, though it is projected to reach $49bn by 2030.

The Geography of Gaming, Web3, and the Need for Local Knowledge

The last decade has seen the industry’s economic center of gravity shift away from Europe and North America toward China and the broader APAC region. The next decade, and Web3 specifically, will continue this trend of shifting away from the West, driven by consumers in the global south. (Additional sources: 1, 2, 3).


To maximize their odds of success in Web3, publishers need to have a physical presence in Southeast Asia and networks in key territories such as Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, India, as well as Latin America (LATAM).

Though $20M may seem like a lot of money, it’s a very modest budget to publish multiple titles. Big-budget games often have marketing budgets in the $100Ms. The teams with a low enough burn to be able to build a solid proof of concept and run marketing tests for ~$3M, are most likely to be in APAC, Southeast Asia, India, and Europe, which is also where most of our players will be.

Mighty Bear is based in Singapore and has deep connections to the development ecosystems in Southeast Asia, India, APAC, Europe, and the US. Additionally we have contacts in MENA and LATAM we can leverage.

The Publishing Opportunity

Web2 mobile game distribution is fundamentally broken. In 2023, the cost of user acquisition increased to the point where scaling a game to profitability costs tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars. For most Web2 studios, the cost of acquiring users is greater than the amount of revenue a game could ever generate.

Web3 fixes this by enabling a direct-to-consumer relationship and cutting out the $40 billion a year that Meta, Google, and other ad networks extract from the gaming ecosystem. Instead, Web3 offers players a say in the ecosystem and a stake in the game’s future success.

Through this initiative, the ApeCoin DAO will be helping to re-write the rulebook for publishing. No-one has yet cracked Web3 game publishing. This is a multi-billion dollar opportunity and if successful, the ApeCoin DAO would be one the main beneficiaries.

The Nintendo of Gen Z” is not going to be a mobile studio or a company putting discs in boxes. The next era-defining games will be built by companies that enable player-owned and operated ecosystems.

IP and Brand Partnerships to Accelerate Publishing

Partnering with IPs is a great way of reducing publishing risk and increasing a game’s chances of success. IPs offer immediate brand recognition and bring a ready-made fan base. Games that partner with big brands, either with a branded game (like Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes) or special events (Dragon Ball in Fortnite), can have outsized results.

The Mighty Bear team has decades of experience working with the most challenging IP partners in the world.

Cracking the Code for Mainstream Gamers

Given the outsized impact of mobile and the dominance of Asia (a mobile-first region), the medium-term (five years) will require a hybrid approach: mobile experiences with a seamless onboarding for easy access, married with gameplay only made possible by Web3.

Winners will be the teams with a proven track record in mobile, who are deep into Web3, and understand its tech, ecosystem, and culture. These teams will be able to take complex experiences, and repackage them in ways which are approachable and fun. Mighty Bear has strong multi-platform experience and the proprietary tech to bring Web3 experiences to mobile, PC, and consoles. Whether you’re on the go or at home, The Boring Artists Agency will always be at your fingertips.

Roles and Responsibilities

The image below shows the roles and responsibilities as well as the flow of funds through the ecosystem:

  • The Development Studios are responsible for creating gameplay concepts (Games A, B, and C in the diagram above). By taking a “strike team” approach spread across multiple titles, the DAO will have a much greater chance of success than by focusing on one or two big titles.
  • Publishing is responsible for Operations (though in practice parts of this are shared with the Development teams), User Acquisition, and Revenue generation. They are also focused on community engagement, Web2 and Web3 distribution, relationships with marketplaces and app stores, negotiating partnerships, and bringing in IP opportunities.

Flow of Funds

  • Initial grant ($10M) from ApeCoin DAO would be split between stablecoins and $APE
  • Publishing team identifies promising projects, signs them, and pays when specific milestones are met. Once a concept is sufficiently developed, TBAA will run marketing tests. If a title demonstrates traction the publishing team invests in scaling the game.
  • If a title has a clear path to profitability, TBAA draw down the remainder of the grant ($10M).
  • Publishing team takes net revenues (minus platform and ad network fees) and sends one-quarter back to the ApeCoin DAO, splitting the remainder between Publishing and Development to enable reinvestment.

Long-term incentive alignment (royalty split) is key to the success of any publishing initiative. If the publisher and developer are only incentivized to deliver games but don’t have any upside in their long-term success, the outcome will be that the grants only attract lower quality “work-for-hire” teams with no incentive to make the game a success. The money will be wasted.

The first breakthrough Web3 title will enable capturing all of the value of the best Web2 experiences plus the uncapped upside of Web3.

Top-performing live service games (Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, World of Warcraft etc.) generate huge revenues for decades not just one or two years.

Example of what adding value to NFT holders could look like: in this concept event a player is able to fish up special event bonuses (such as the Captain’s Hat or 3D glasses) exclusive to the Yugaverse NFTs they own. The player could then choose whether to keep or sell these.

How Does This Benefit the DAO?

The DAO will benefit in four ways:

  1. ApeCoin usage: ApeCoin will be the primary means of exchange for all titles developed by The Boring Artists Agency. Millions of new users will be onboarded to Web3 via $APE and the Yugaverse, which in turn will drive demand and usage for $APE. This is consistent with the DAO’s objective for APE to serve as a “decentralized protocol layer for community-led initiatives that drive culture forward into the metaverse”, as well as increasing demand and utility for the token.
  2. Bringing revenue back to the DAO: Net proceeds from any games published by TBAA will be split between the Apecoin DAO and TBAA. This is a proposal that could generate profits far in excess of the original investment for the DAO.
  3. Increased value and utility for Yugaverse assets: Game economies developed under this proposal will seek to find ways to support existing Yugaverse assets and reward holders.
  4. Brand Partnerships for the $APE ecosystem: Mighty Bear has proven experience working with AAA IP owners and will leverage these relationships to onboard large IPs into TBAA titles and the $APE ecosystem once product-market fit has been demonstrated.

Use of Funds and Schedule

We are requesting $20 million in funding from the ApeCoin DAO to cover the development and publishing of multiple titles. This is to be paid in two tranches of $10M. The first tranche will be issued on approval of the proposal and the second tranche will only be drawn down once a game has proven product-market fit and a clear path to profitability.

Based on previous titles, a rough breakdown of costs is follows: 45% on user acquisition and marketing, 45% on salaries, and the remaining 10% on equipment, software, outsourcing, licenses, and general and administrative items.

The budget will be split between development and publishing teams across the duration of the program. Though publishing is more expensive, not all titles will make it to market, which is why costs will even out. The publishing team will only invest in scaling titles with proven product-market fit, whereas the development will working on all games (including the ones that don’t make it), from concept through to launch.

TBAA will deploy publishing support teams throughout the duration of the program. The total number of teams will be determined by the scope of the games signed under the program.

Once a suitable gameplay prototype has been identified, TBAA will run marketing tests to validate interest from demographics in key geographical territories. Once product-market fit has been demonstrated, the team will rapidly scale the game in question. The DAO will then start to see revenues flowing back to the treasury.

The project will take place over an initial 24-36 month period. The first six months will be spent on sourcing, pre-production, conception, and getting regular input from the DAO’s leadership. The project leadership will then make themselves available for monthly check-ins with the DAO’s leadership to provide updates and ensure alignment throughout the duration of the program.

Sequence of Events

  1. DAO approval, sourcing and team ramp-up begins. Team available for syncs with the DAO leadership every two weeks for first four months. Team would share progress on concepts with the DAO’s leadership and provide regular updates.
  2. First concepts confirmed.
  3. Development roadmap locked for first concepts.
  4. First game Alpha versions made available for holders to test and provide feedback.
    • Throughout its history, Mighty Bear Games has consistently shipped titles in under a year. This is almost unheard of in the games industry. We will work to bring this expertise and discipline to partner teams.
  5. Games start to go into Open Beta.
  6. User acquisition proven to be profitable at scale.
  7. Global launch of successful Beta titles.

Expected Outcomes and Impact

Gaming is at the forefront of popular culture. From 12M people joining a concert in the metaverse to owning Hollywood, gaming dominates the popular consciousness across ages and geographies. Being at the forefront of a new cultural revolution will uniquely position the DAO to benefit in from the uptake of ApeCoin as the protocol layer for this shift. This could provide the momentum for the ApeCoin DAO to expand to all other cultural touchstones such as film, TV, lifestyle brands, and even music.

Potential Challenges and Mitigation

The video game industry is competitive, expensive, and risky

Mighty Bear Games has multiple successful titles under its belt and has developed proprietary tech to help ship games which mitigates some of these challenges. We believe that partnering with established ecosystems and leveraging our extensive network to explore different strategic Web2 publishing partnerships (such as: VNG in Vietnam, Globe in Philippines, AKG in Indonesia, Babil in MENA, MPL in India, Miniclip for mass market Web2 scale, etc.), de-risks this even further.

Web3 games haven’t crossed over to mainstream players and there is fierce resistance to the tech in the broader gaming community

Traditional gamers have been put off for a number of reasons: misinformation, the industry’s at-times exploitative approach to monetization, and the dearth of quality Web3 titles to-date. We believe that players gravitate to groundbreaking games and experiences regardless of the platform or business model. Clash of Clans onboarded hundreds of millions of hostile gamers to mobile F2P almost overnight.

Web3 needs killer apps, and ApeCoin DAO is positioned to be both the enabler and the beneficiary of them.

Many of the best game devs are still resistant to working in Web3

Success begets success. The early days of mobile gaming saw dismissive attitudes from developers. Today it attracts the best and brightest, keen to create games that reach the largest audiences. As the industry shifts and the space matures, more will follow.

Mighty Bear Games has a track record of successfully onboarding veteran Web2 devs to Web3. We expect this to continue by consistently shipping and proving the potential of Web3.

We believe that with ApeCoin DAO we will convert the unbelieving masses and drive Web3 culture forward together into the metaverse.

Next Steps

If our proposal is accepted, we will begin sourcing the first batch of concepts immediately, with a goal of locking down initial prototypes in four months, and having the first public playable builds within 12 months of development commencing.

Author: Simon Davis, CEO at Mighty Bear Games

Simon Davis is the co-founder and CEO of Mighty Bear Games, a leading mobile-first, multi-platform game developer in Southeast Asia – creating accessible, genre-defining, multiplayer experiences in Web3.

With nearly two decades of experience, Simon previously held management and product lead positions at the likes of King, Ubisoft, Bigpoint, AKQA, Empire Interactive, and Laughing Jackal.

In 2016, Simon joined forces with Fadzuli Said and Benjamin Chevalier, to launch Mighty Bear Games. From the outset, Mighty Bear Games was intentionally designed as a studio centered on positive values, showing that you can do the right thing by staff, players, and investors. Over the past six years, Simon has led Mighty Bear Games in launching titles including Butter Royale and Disney Melee Mania, while the studio’s first Web3 title, Mighty Action Heroes, went into Open Beta in July 2023.

Socials: Twitter and LinkedIn

For more information about this proposal, please contact

Welcome to the forums Simon and congrats on posting your ambitious AIP idea to “bring millions of new users to ApeCoin”.

I love swinging for fences and casual, mobile gaming is certainly a great market to bet on for outsized successes – so 90% supportive.

A main omission seems to be @JonahBlake – is he or will he be invited to this venture? Were you guys in discussion before this AIP was drafted? Not that it should matter, but it would be nice to know, especially as Jonah’s AIP is still in process.

That said, just a couple of thoughts:

  • Not 100% sure this is doable in our current structure: :point_down:t4:
  • Perhaps setting up a separate Mobile Gaming Collective, kinda like a SubDAO/SisterDAO? :point_down:t4:
  • Thanks for sharing your thoughts on expenses, can you do the same for revenues expected? :point_down:t4:
  • Would you mind elaborating on this and what’s your gut feeling on when all 3 to 4 games could be published - 2 years, 5 years? :point_down:t4:


I’m 100% positive that members with a lot more experience than I will come forth with big-brain questions, and this is just me thinking out loud. I look forward to reading the questions and answers to follow and wish you much luck.

Perhaps we could hold a Spaces or two to discuss some of this stuff out loud --:thinking:.

SSP :call_me_hand:t4:


My understanding from reading the proposal is that the DAO will provide the funding and your team will provide the mentorship/guidance for another team to deliver a product. i.e. Your team will just be a publisher.

Usually a publisher pays an advance based on royalties earned in the future. Some research shows (correct me if I’m wrong) that the low end of royalties is around 20% but can be higher depending on how much work they do.

One-quarter of net revenues will go back to the ApeCoin DAO. It only takes for one title to be profitable for this to deliver huge returns to ApeCoin DAO.

This seems incredibly low to me. We essentially act as an LP to MBG, which itself is acting as a publisher. You guys will probably will pay upfront to the studio using the money we give you and you will act as the stewards of our money. In return we get utility for APE and some royalties. Being part of the APE ecosystem provides benefits to the game as well, but I think net, the DAO benefits more than the studio for utilizing APE so the DAO definitely will have to pay up for this usage. But the profit share for providing so much capital seems incredibly low, especially when compared to what MBG is putting in - time.

With any success MBG stands to gain tremendously from a game built using DAO funds, but if it fails, its just some time lost for MBG. I think it would be fairer if our revenue % was higher (given we can figure out how to handle it), or if MBG puts in a little bit of money on top of the time as well (so there’s a little more skin in the game).

The Disney games appears to be liked by people and the Mighty Action Heroes looks pretty modern and seems to be deployed on the Treasure ecosystem. I don’t have doubts you guys will be able to deliver modern games, I guess I’m just a little unsure about the fact that we giving you money so that you can give it to someone else, and we are paying a hefty premium for that privilege.


Also as an aside, I wonder if you can handle revenue like this - using the revenue, you buy back and burn tokens. It’s not the most efficient use of capital, but this doesn’t require any special set up.

1 Like

Also this from AIP-1:


This is by far the most detailed proposal I have read. There is a lot of potential with an experienced team and I am very excited about having mobile games that bring millions of users into the ecosystem.

One question:

  • How will ApeCoin be used when interacting with web2 users, I’m assuming x2 scenarios:
  1. Web2 sign in with a username, Google, Facebook, etc. It would be a formula of microtransactions-based game where transactions in the users’ local currency, however those payments would then be swapped into $APE in the background so the majority of gamers wouldn’t have to worry about the cryptocurrency side.

  2. Web3 sign in with ethereum, and microtransactions would be done in $APE, perhaps using an L2 or with batch transactions to have very low gas costs.

Any clarity would be great & if you’d like to discuss more, lmk :grin:


Placeholder template. I’ll be back.

Announcer: oh-oh

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Hi @ssp1111,

Is this a formal notice from the DAO? We want to respect due process and it would be good to get clarity from the DAO mods whether we need to pause this process or not.

Hi there, thanks so much for the kind words. We’ve known @JonahBlake a little while and when we saw him state he’d love for someone with more experience to come in, we took the challenge at face value and just ran with it. We were not in discussion beforehand. In hindsight, that could have been handled better. We certainly didn’t expect things to play out how they have.

  • Not 100% sure this is doable in our current structure: :point_down:t4:

If a proposal were to move forward we’d have to get professional legal advice on the structure and how. There are many jurisdictions with different approaches to crypto and DAOs so it’s likely there should be a mechanism whereby the DAO can benefit (like the sub DAO you mention).

Blockquote Thanks for sharing your thoughts on expenses, can you do the same for revenues expected? :point_down:t4:

Gaming revenues vary based on the type of gameplay, but games in genres with high spend also usually incur very high marketing costs (lots of competition for the same audience). Typically multiplayer games make more than single-player games due to a deeper economy and more compulsion to spend (competition and social).

Let’s benchmark Stumble Guys. A fairly simple game, made by a team of of 5-6 that’s gone on to do well. According to SensorTower it generated $5.2M last month (so $60M+ per year) just in mobile in-app purchase revenues. That excludes all the revenues from ads and the PC version, so this number could end up being close to $100M per year. That’s a great outcome and most games don’t get near this but this has to be the level of ambition we show when signing up titles.

Would you mind elaborating on this and what’s your gut feeling on when all 3 to 4 games could be published - 2 years, 5 years? :point_down:t4:

I would think by 24-36 months, really depends on the team and complexity of the concept. Having said that, we may decide not to support every title with scaling if the profitability isn’t there. In that case we’d look at alternative options for those titles and investing the time and energy in the titles and teams that do have potential to deliver the strongest performance.

Would be happy to host a spaces and chat once we clarify whether this can move forward or if we need to wait. Want to respect the process. Hopefully we can get clarity soon.


We’d certainly be open to exploring different options with our legal advisors should things move forward. I’m sure there’s a resolution out there that works for everyone.


Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Let’s talk about the value of time, since that was the resource you brought up.

Good publishers don’t just sit there and wait for folks to come along and hand them a game, and TBAA aims to be a good publisher.

  • Sourcing: In our case we’d be using relationships built over many years to begin sourcing game development partners. We will be spending our time doing outreach or fielding inbound interest, briefing them on how it all works, going back-and-forth with them to also inform our own understanding and assessment of their suitability to be development partners
  • Evaluation: Once sourced, TBAA would review concepts, sifting out duds and pursuing quality ones. Even the best game developers initial proposals will require feedback and iteration by both the game developers and the publishers.
  • Negotiation: Then there’s negotiating the development deals terms, as well as sanity-checking proposed roadmaps, agreeing on roadmap, milestones, and deliverables
  • Getting Games Shipped: TBAA (meaning individual product leads, designers, engineers, QA, artists) will need playing the interim builds, assessing it against the milestones and deliverables, identifying problem -areas or areas of improvement that should be prioritised in the next sprints (which would likely involve re-prioritisation and scoping of the roadmap ahead). If needed, TBAA can help the development teams troubleshoot particularly difficult bugs, scoping, and other issues.
  • Pre-publishing: typically a publisher and developer starts working on the prep work for marketing a game several months before a game launch, discussing and working on marketing messaging, marketing art, materials, community engagement, etc. In the case of web3, it’s likely that this would happen even earlier (for example, doing Early Access Alpha access or Open Betas). TBAA would also be the one working on building marketing partnerships with other ecosystems and IP owners for the games to go beyond the ApeCoin DAO community.

Doing this requires having people work with the teams from the get-go.

It’s a process that requires the time and energy of folks who have spend years building up experience. So let’s break it down a bit more:

  • CTO with 10 years of experience cost upwards of $250K USD per year (in the US it’s closer to $300K+)
  • Expert Game Designer or an Art Director with 10 years of experience cost upwards of $175K USD per year (in the US it’s closer to $200K+ especially if there’s Web3 experience in the mix).

If it fails, the time cost (in absolute salary terms) and opportunity cost for us would not be insignificant. We would likely have to turn down other partnerships and initiatives to give this the time and attention it would need. Taking into account all the different dynamics, 25% is fair.


Thank you for taking the time to address this head on.

If we use your numbers, hiring 2 CTOs, and 4 Art Directors from America would cost 1.4M per year. That’s how much it would cost to hire them full time working only for us. If we round it up to 2M per year, for all the ancillary staff we would have a pretty strong team ready to manage another studio. If we did this, we would get to keep most of the revenues and we would act as the publisher, and will probably spend a lot less than your proposed amount because we have everything in house. Let’s say 15M for dev costs. So we could have this team for 2 years, have most of the revenues for less than your asking amount - 20M.

Do you see the disconnect here? I strongly believe you guys need to be compensated well. But this is being compensated extraordinarily well, even by US standards. Am I missing something here?

Again like I said, I was happy to see that you guys have games released that look good and at least have a chance of succeeding in today’s tough mobile environment. I’m curious what other people’s thoughts are as well. It would be incredible to have a mobile game that uses APE. Looks like the platforms are loosening up right now as well, so it would be good timing. We just need to come up with an agreement that looks like a clear win-win or lose-lose, not a win-huge win, lose-win (Ape DAO-MBG)


@ssp1111 you beat me to it.

Jonah’s AIP is similar, but not as detailed.

Yeah that’s because it’s a professional VC deck. They’ve probably been shopping around a game project, and due to the current investment market, didn’t get any takers. Outfits like IntellaX and Fenix Games are attempting the same Web3 publishing route.


yes - it’s in the foundation mandate in AIP-1.

You have to go talk to @JonahBlake and figure it out with him. But, considering the Twitter banter and the general consensus, good luck with that. That you guys have experience in designing, developing and publishing games, is a plus because he doesn’t have that level of experience.

Below is his AIP idea. I suggest that you read through all the comments because they apply to your idea too. e.g you’re more likely to win the lottery than get $1m in funding. To say nothing about $20m.

The DAO generally doesn’t do projects that extend beyond 1yr.


Yup, there’s that.

It’s not that simple. As I have mentioned before, over 90% of games that get released, will fail. There’s a lot of data on that. So, putting $20m into a publishing venture with a 2-3 yr spread per project is as risky as playing the lotto. Game publishing is a much higher risk than game dev. I am pretty sure these guys know this. I would much rather give $20m to charity and take the tax credit.

Here’s how I see this as someone who has a vast experience in this field…

The Metaverse Working Group is designed to do specifically what both of these game publishing ideas seek to do, but with far less risk and more control by the DAO. With three stewards in MWG, and which hopefully has someone (wink-wink) with experience in games dev & publishing, it can engage, review, sign up and fund various projects - most of which would have to be in some degree of development; ergo a vertical slice.

The MWG is setup to be autonomous. This allows it to be more flexible in how it operates. And it gives the DAO complete control over the projects so that we can plot the progress of the projects, the funding etc. If I am in that group, I would put up the same dev and publishing processes that determine things like project design, analysis, milestone based payments etc. Basically, a publishing arm of the DAO - which I believe will likely end up being part of a sister DAO (as per Yat’s AIP idea for his NFT vault) which would allow it to get project funding grants or loans directly from the main DAO, and also be able receive revenue via the signed projects.

And yes - every project that the MWG approves, will be required to use $APE currency.

The MWG being in control of the projects also means that it can sign a diverse set of digital projects over a specific time span. And it will be a lot cheaper and less risky than giving $20m to a third-party and hope they don’t rug the DAO.

And the MWG would also have its cheap CTO and bizdev experienced stewards who aren’t in it for the money, but for the prosperity of the DAO. And they are only paid $9K per month each. So, even with one person with this experience in the MWG, that’s only $108K per year.

With $20m in grant or loan from the main DAO, not only will the MWG have control of funding and projects, but the entire DAO would have access to everything related to the projects being funded. We already have a capable secretary in @Vulkan for data presentation and upkeep.

So no, the DAO doesn’t need to give any third-party $20m to do, basically the same thing it just setup an autonomous group to do.

Besides, as per the SC mandate, I would be surprised if either of these AIPs make it past admin review.

Proposals will not be considered/put up for a vote if they involve illegal activity, hate speech, pornographic material, or are at odds with the mission or values of the APE Foundation.”

So, arguably, these two AIPs are already in conflict with the MWG mission mandate of the DAO. If the MWG is going to fund any game project, it directly puts it in conflict with those external projects - which it has little or no control over. But that’s for the SC to decide if either AIP even goes into admin review.

Regardless of all the above, this AIP can’t be submitted for three months after Jonah’s submission.


Yeah that’s because it’s a professional VC deck. They’ve probably been shopping around a game project, and due to the current investment market, didn’t get any takers. Outfits like IntellaX and Fenix Games are attempting the same Web3 publishing route.

This is not correct. I acknowledge it’s a challenging time for lots of companies but we’re not raising right now (the studio is in a healthy position and has 2+ years worth of runway), this is not a time to be raising if you don’t need to. I wrote this proposal with my co-founder in the last 2 weeks or so.

VCs don’t do lots of text and detail in pitch decks (with reams of text on a slide). A wall of text is a great way to lose people’s attention during a meeting. Our decks never have more than a 2-3 lines per slide. Had this been from a deck it would have been a fraction of the length.

You have to go talk to @JonahBlake and figure it out with him. But, considering the Twitter banter and the general consensus, good luck with that. That you guys have experience in designing, developing and publishing games, is a plus because he doesn’t have that level of experience.
Below is his AIP idea. I suggest that you read through all the comments because they apply to your idea too. e.g you’re more likely to win the lottery than get $1m in funding. To say nothing about $20m.

We did read through his proposal, it’s the main reason we decided to give this a go. He said he’d be happy for experienced folks to come in and do it, so we stepped up. We certainly didn’t expect things to play out like they had. We’ve been on his show before and there’s never been any ill will from our side.

I’ll post a reply to the original post on this one rather than write the same thing twice.

It’s not that simple. As I have mentioned before, over 90% of games that get released, will fail. There’s a lot of data on that. So, putting $20m into a publishing venture with a 2-3 yr spread per project is as risky as playing the lotto. Game publishing is a much higher risk than game dev. I am pretty sure these guys know this. I would much rather give $20m to charity and take the tax credit.

This is certainly true if you take the entire industry as a whole. The industry operates on a power law where 20% of the teams make 80% of the profits and inexperienced and underfunded teams fail hard and often. We wrote a whole section in the proposal about why this happens and how we’re thinking about it. For sure not all the games will be huge hits, but there’s no reason 1 or 2 can’t deliver outsize returns. Game publishing is actually much lower risk than game development, bets are more diversified and you work with data before scaling investment. It’s not an uncommon model (game publishers have been doing this since the late 70s/early 80s) and it has had incredible outcomes in the industry.


What you suggest is a valid approach. The DAO could set up its own publisher and have to staff, operate, and fund it (maybe 12-18 months to get the hires in and off the ground?), then maybe another 12 months to get all the processes, tech, and first games out the pipe.

For reference the salaries I mentioned are based off US data. We’re significantly cheaper than that (up to 50% in some instances) and teams we would work with would most likely be in Asia. I don’t think you can make the same amount of $10M to get 3-4 games work with US teams and staff, and you’d still need hires to be on the ground in Asia where the users are.

In the scenario we shared, the publisher only makes money here if the games are profitable. Otherwise it’s a few salaries paid/contributed to (if it’s a shared resource) and 2-2.5 years of lost time that could have been invested elsewhere.

Right. So, you’re saying that instead of raising $20m from investors and VC who are vastly more experienced in this type of funding, you decided to come ask an inexperienced DAO community - which you just joined - for $20m? Why?

I have seen all types of decks - as has Jonah. This is a deck for a raise or pitch to either an investment group or publisher.

Also, are you suggesting then that you created a deck of this magnitude to dazzle the DAO community? Because that’s what it sounds like if you’re saying.

I was part of the Twitter thread between you guys. And he was just as surprised to see the AIP idea as I was. He stated that he would support it, but not as you have stated. If you were an active part of this community you would have been aware of the rules surrounding similar AIP ideas. But none of this matters because you’re both just wasting your time, while making the SC earn their pay because they have to still go through admin review if either of these go that far.

Yep. AIP-1.

If @JonahBlake withdrew his proposal or it failed to pass at Snapshot, this AIP Idea could still move through the process on its current pace – you just need to ask the facilitators to extend the conversation each week as you keep an eye on his AIP.

If his AIP passes then you would have to wait 3 months before re-submitting.

Of course, this is all subject to interpretation of AIP-1 by the Discourse Facilitators & Admins.

Appreciate you answering the community’s questions.

SSP :call_me_hand:t4:


The risk and costs are lower if you spend $20m on diverse game projects to which the funding goes. Setting up a publisher comes with cost overheads that game dev doesn’t.

No, that’s not how the MWG will operate. It’s not a publisher. It’s a project manager of sorts.

Each signed project is expected to already have their team in place, and in the case of a game project, a vertical slice from a new team is likely to be required. They do their own dev & publishing. At least that’s how I expect them to operate. I could be wrong since I am not in that group.

There are many indie devs of 5-6 man teams who can make a game for $1M - $2M each, depending on scope. I have entire folders of those pitches - and from very qualified teams.

indeed. But the MWG doesn’t have the overhead of a publisher. And it’s already funded by the DAO.