I think I’ve seen this proposed before, but lets see where this discussion lands.
However, I think the problem will only continue to get worse. Sybil attacks are annoying. The most commonly held amount of ApeCoin is 1.x - 2x.
It is hard to reasonably assume DAO membership from dust in a wallet.
Sybil attacks on every layer of the DAO ecosystem are occurring all the time. If someone wanted to create 100 forum accounts, farm reputation/rewards, etc. they could VERY cost effectively do this at try and farm all kinds of rewards through ThankApe, BSec, Thrivecoin, and weaken our ability to perform Sybil defense in the future with all these botted accounts forming.
Q: So, why 10 ApeCoin then?
A: Sybil defense is a spectrum, and we need to be very careful with turning the dial too far in one direction. By making the DAO membership across the board cost 10, membership becomes about the cost of 1 dinner in an average OECD country.
I don’t believe this will materially diminish anyone’s ability to participate in the DAO who really wants to, and it may at least slow the onslaught of bots, and let on-chain analysis check who the members are, and who just had a ton of bots airdrop farming, or potentially sybiling our DAO system in hopes for potential rewards in the future, or actual rewards in the present.
Recently an AIP was rejected from being allowed to go to vote as it would place a wallet cap in voting power at 1 million $APE. The reason provided was that this goes against the founding principle of 1 APE = 1 APE.
I’d be curious if this would be rejected prior to vote for the same reason. The reasoning behind the AIP makes sense, at least at current $APE prices.
The factor of having 10 $APE would not eliminate sybils in my view.
I think interactions will eliminate the Sybils.
Because for you to get rewards with ThankApe, you need to interact and do missions, not all of which are that easy to complete, they require some level of user and account legitimacy.
I think the 10 ApeCoin amount would be reasonable as long as we don’t increase to 100 etc. in the case that sybil attackers rise up to meet the minimum (10 ApeCoin is a day’s income in some countries such as the Philippines, which has a heavy web 3 population).
I do wonder how this barrier might impact someone’s ability to contribute if ApeCoin’s price suddenly & sharply rises. Would it make sense to have language analogous to “10 ApeCoin or $50, whichever is lower” in the details of the AIP?
There are few barriers towards entering the DAO, majority of it being just language barrier. I dont think increasing the entry point to 10 $ape would stop the attacks. Scammers already have tons of money and getting 10 x100 more $ape wont make a difference to them but it would create an even tougher entry point for others who are genuinely interested in the DAO or looking to engage with.
I myself started with just 1 $ape and earned more than 2000+ $ape over the past few months, in the way onboarding more people by giving away a decent amount of $ape to artist and friends. 1 to 10 $ape wont change a thing for those who exploit the system but it will ruin the experience for others who genuinely care.
This is an interesting topic, since you left the discussion open to explore… how would we feel about a “threshold” for introducing proposals?
We’ve already mirrored some of the structure from the ENS DAO here in our DAO. And it might make sense to add some other structure around this sort of rule…one element that has always felt missing, for me, is some threshold. Since we already have different proposal categories we could trial different levels of this.
For example, verifying ownership of 1,000 apecoin, or 1000 delegated apecoin, to submit an ecosystem fund proposal. 10,000 apecoin to submit a process proposal, which could impact the fundamental process of the dao.
Hey, @Feld We’ve known each other for a long time in Boring Security, I hope you won’t decide that I’m Sybil))) But when I came to the forum for the first time, I also had less than $5 APE in my wallet. I came here after Boring Security lessons when I was setting up my profile in ThriveCoin. And then I saw the tasks for which they charge $ APE and began to delve into the forum, thanks to them. After I started going deeper, the forum became much more interesting for me, I got to know the DAO in general and the entire apecoin universe more closely. And all thanks to the tasks. but!! If I didn’t know the value of all this in advance, I probably wouldn’t have paid $10 APE for membership. Yes, and I could also be considered a sybil, since I had about $5 APE
P.s. I am grateful to you and all the members of Boring Security for introducing me to this world, I really like it here.
Apecoin is for everyone & one Apecoin is enough to be one person. We should not devaluations it.
It is economically bad for any attacker to spread Apecoin plus attackers can not chill (we implemented the amount of minimum words)
Many vote without even have a discourse profile.
The spreading of Apecoin doesn’t affect the total vote power.
Thrivecoin or other coins are not our DAO.
For many countries even 1 Apecoin is a lot to not have it in circulation, this about that somewhere you can have entire meal for 10 cents or be killed for 20 dollars - so no you don’t want no one know that if you in this DAO then you have this 20 dollars somewhere in the wallet.
We all need to stop thinking like everyone is reach.
Some entire pension a month is 15 dollars and some of those people wish they had at list a phone to participate, they don’t and they reach out to non profits and professional helping groups like Dress for Success around the world & more.
We need to stop conversations about locking this public foundation tighter and whales convenient, because it’s end up costing even those mega whales a pretty coin for not thinking.
So my summary I suggest no change to apecoin.eth voting, but put the 10 APE min on the engagement farming programs.
I agree with this. Since 1 ape = 1 vote, having tons of 1 votes doesn’t really make a difference.
I like @Lost’s suggestion of raising the bar on introducing proposals but we need to be careful about the number and lean towards being conservative. If the bar is 10,000 I doubt we’ll see any newer small holders propose anything. I think we would also see a massive decrease in the number of AIPs. But maybe something like 100 APE across the board might work as a minimum to introduce new proposal.
Here’s another mechanism I’ve heard about but never really seen implemented anywhere: time weighted token balance. So this takes into account how long you’ve held the tokens and gives you a score. We can formulate this to be exponential so that the longer you hold it, the much more power the tokens have. This would purely be used to see if you are eligible to create proposals. This way you can make membership time important. Others can skip this step by just buying more tokens. This gives small holder OGs the same proposal creating power as newer large holders.
Might be too complicated but something to think about.
We’ve known each other for a long time in Boring Security, I hope you won’t decide that I’m Sybil
A sybil in this particular case is when one person has multiple identities to create the illusion that there are multiple people supporting/against something. In your case, if you have only one identity, there’s no reason you would be considered a sybil. This whole idea revolves around trying to make it harder/more expensive for one person to have multiple identities.
Exactly this ^
Majority of people in crypto and NFTs dont like BAYC or apecoin in general. This will be opposite of what we all trying to do, implementing this will be 10 steps backward. So many people currently active in the DAO started with just 1 $ape. Hell… even Axies boosted their fame and adoption from scholars who played it and earned, all from south east Asia where even $1 is more than enough.
I’m just super tired of seeing everything about Apecoin DAO being focused only in USA.
FYI, sybill attack will still exist doesnt matter the entry cost, but it will stop genuine people for sure
I dont think its good idea, because sybil always those whom have alot money, if they can make profit via DAO, the value cannot restrict them.
And as you know, reward only add for the value task, so sybil cant do that.
But if minium request to entry DAO too high, may be we make some PEOPLE behind us bro, its not friendly style
Thanks for putting up this idea @Feld. It’s an interesting discussion and I can see the reasoning to both sides.
Sybil attacks are annoying and combatting them takes up the Facilitators and Stewards time where they could be doing more productive things. But I have also heard of quite a few people who became involved with the DAO with less than 10 ApeCoin. Often people will send someone 1 ApeCoin to help them get started in the DAO. I wonder if it is increased to 10 if that would occur less often.
Love the discussion and think @bigbull’s suggestion is interesting, though that might decrease wanted participation through ThankApe, depending on who is onboarded through there. It would be best to look at the data.
!exactly. You get my point.
You can already probably find wallets from participants here pretending to be a multiple people, yes that includes those mentioned by someone shark and other animal kingdoms.
Im at a lot of DEFI communities with actual serious builders & there is no “hate”, just most of peope dont even have NFTs or Tweeter, they don’t care, but some have lots of ApeCoin and they DO NOT EVEN STAKE IT TO THE CONTRACT.
If you idea is to lock people out - those will not be your mentioned “whales”, it will be a little man, the smart people versus chill people, those who have no time to chill here every post will phrases “AW MY GOD its so amazing you even posting here…”, holders generally don’t care about whales, companies and MAJOR holders and VCs care about the little guy, what 1 ApeCoin holder wants - because thats the power of the community and that whats counts here. And if community don’t like something - no whales mini group can beat it, no important how much useless rewards promised or spaces shilled with 500 bots vs just 33 listeners (some of them are triple profiles).
If we talk about animal kingdom here again - There is a funny children song for piano players starters - '33 cows". you can sing about them, but cows can BUILD a piano and community are the ones pushing all the buttons. You tell those inspiring token holders to pay 10 times and they will eat all cows.